"Is Hell Forever?"

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by googlefudge
"If you cannot prove that hell exists, then you cannot prove that hell has any given properties."
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Pleased you're interested in this thread's subject; may I ask what types of proof regarding the existence of "hell" you require?

Maybe it would be helpful for some believers to explain how they came to believe in hell. Then we can discuss whether and why any of the explanations is proof.

Of course some of them may have come to believe in a way that they agree isn't proof, and later, they found proof. That would also be interesting too.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by googlefudge
"If you cannot prove that hell exists, then you cannot prove that hell has any given properties."
______________________________

Pleased you're interested in this thread's subject; may I ask what types of proof regarding the existence of "hell" you require?

I require proof of hells existence. There are not [in context] "types of proof"... However
as you are evidently struggling with the concept I will say that:

"I require logically and scientifically sound empirical evidence, sufficient to rationally justify belief in the existence of hell."

-Removed-

This is true, although I find it interesting that you can identify that this is true without
apparently being able to see that there is no theistic belief that this or similar cannot
be said about. Including your own belief that a god exists.

I like the fact that your sense of fairness and morality is sufficiently well developed that
you reject the idea of a god that tortures or murders people simply for not worshipping it.

However you still fundamentally believe that a god does in fact exist, despite having nothing more
than "some tenuous scriptures" 'backed up' by "religious authority" to justify that belief.

Originally posted by JS357
Maybe it would be helpful for some believers to explain how they came to believe in hell. Then we can discuss whether and why any of the explanations is proof.

Of course some of them may have come to believe in a way that they agree isn't proof, and later, they found proof. That would also be interesting too.

Indeed, I second this post.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]Is Hell Forever? Evangelicals and Eternal Retribution
(Reprinted with permission from Voice, Sept./Oct, 2001. By Dr. James R. Mook)

"Will the destiny of the unsaved be eternal conscious torment or annihilation (total cessation of existence)? The eternal conscious punishment of the lost has always been a fundamental doctrine of Christian ortho ...[text shortened]... estions will be reserved until the presentation of this scholarly study is completed. Thank you.[/b]

Yes, that is why it's called hell!

Originally posted by googlefudge
I require proof of hells existence. There are not [in context] "types of proof"... However
as you are evidently struggling with the concept I will say that:

"I require logically and scientifically sound empirical evidence, sufficient to rationally justify belief in the existence of hell."

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (OP)
"Note: This exhaustive study by Dr. James R. Mook will be presented in the same nine sections in which it was written. I'm well aware of the fact that the doctrine of Lake Of Fire as revealed in the New Testament Book of Revelation has been a highly contested biblical truth within this online spirituality forum for many years. In the interest of objective discussion with substantiated personal opinion, let's harness our emotions in order to promote civility with tolerance of opposing points of view. Please feel free to comment and ask relevant questions at will. My own comments and questions will be reserved until the presentation of this scholarly study is completed. Thank you."
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"Note: Four Sections remain. What I've learned and unlearned so far from this scholarly study by Dr. James R. Mook will be the 9th. May I ask what you've also learned or unlearned so far? Yes, letting go is an integral component of learning in any realm. Think back in your own life when your father or mother or older brother or uncle or mentor or someone else taught you how the game of chess is played,

If you lacked a relevant frame of reference or if it was checkers or backgammon (as it was for me) you also had to re-orient your rational thought process. Later on after playing a number of chess games, did you also realize that some of your impressions and preconceptions and unsubstantiated opinions were dead wrong? I sure as hell did. It's all about positive vs. negative volition and the desire to know.

And the point? As the New England Poet Robert Frost once observed: "We grow by shedding like sheep." It's no different for any of us in the spiritual realm. We all begin as ignorant infants and progress by filling the vacuum in our souls with absolute truth." (Page 5)
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googlefudge, the exception to: "My own comments and questions will be reserved until the presentation of this scholarly study is completed..." was made on our behalf because you've seldom weighed in on my threads during the past year and I was eager to invite an objectively focused conversation free of subjectively based opinion and raw emotional content. The assumption that God exists is the foundation of this thread's subject. Whether you think God exists at this point in your life is less of an issue than clarity of thought. If you actually do not believe God exists, at least make a logical statement: 'on the basis of empiricism and/or rationalism I do not believe that God and "hell" exist and here are several examples' would evidence logical thought. So we face the threshold question: Is productive conversation possible now or for whatever the reason impossible at this time? Please read all eight (8) of the "Sections" presented on pages 1-7; I'll be back to this forum with "the ninth" Tuesday as well as further reply if you're still interested. Thank you.

Originally posted by JS357
Maybe it would be helpful for some believers to explain how they came to believe in hell. Then we can discuss whether and why any of the explanations is proof.

Of course some of them may have come to believe in a way that they agree isn't proof, and later, they found proof. That would also be interesting too.

Very well, I take it nobody remembers how they came to believe in hell. I know I don't remember. It most likely it was told to me by someone whose truthfulness and knowledge I trusted because they were older and knew more about the world in other areas so by induction I concluded they knew about hell. Later, I also believed that various Bible verses referred to hell, and was taught that the Bible was inerrant.

It also made sense that for there to be justice in a world where evil people were not punished while alive on earth, they would be punished afterwards.

I never have found what I would consider a proof. At present I don't believe there is a proof of its existence or nonexistence, but I believe its existence is incompatible with much of what is said in the Bible. Someone might say I will find out someday, possibly the hard way, but such threats do not trigger belief in me.

Originally posted by googlefudge
I require proof of hells existence. There are not [in context] "types of proof"... However
as you are evidently struggling with the concept I will say that:

"I require logically and scientifically sound empirical evidence, sufficient to rationally justify belief in the existence of hell."

Faith is a means of perception which determines reality in both the secular and spiritual realms through confidence in the veracity and authority of someone you trust. God's Word states that He existed in eternity past and will continue to exist during this parenthetical period of human history and throughout eternity future; it also states in Revelation Chapter 20 that the Lake of Fire exists as the eternal destiny of Lucifer/Satan and the fallen angels as well as all human beings who reject His Grace Gift [absolutely free with no conditions or strings] of salvation and eternal life to all who believe [place their trust and confidence] in the Person and redemptive work of Jesus Christ.

Too simple? For some, unfortunately, yes. This gift is dismissed and rejected by them because it seems to insult their finite human intelligence. They do so at their peril. God is not a figment of someone's imagination. He is a person who has no beginning or ending and who has revealed Himself to mankind. "I require logically and scientifically sound empirical evidence, sufficient to rationally justify belief in the existence of hell." googlefudge, you have two choices: 1) Accept the reality of this place as the only alternative to heaven by faith perception or 2) Reject it only to find yourself there for eternity as the ultimate "sound empirical evidence" and acid proof of its reality. Believing in the person and work of Jesus Christ is the only zero risk option. It's my hope that you'll ponder your options.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Faith is a means of perception which determines reality in both the secular and spiritual realms through confidence in the veracity and authority of someone you trust. God's Word states that He existed in eternity past and will continue to exist during this parenthetical period of human history and throughout eternity future; it also states in Revelatio ...[text shortened]... work of Jesus Christ is the only zero risk option. It's my hope that you'll ponder your options.

Faith is a means of perception which determines reality in both the secular and spiritual
realms through confidence in the veracity and authority of someone you trust.

No, faith is believing in stuff for no good reason and despite good reasons not to.

It is not a means of determining reality.

If proof were needed beyond the obvious fact that faith has no mechanism by which it could possibly work,
we can see the huge number of mutually exclusive and contradictory beliefs which people hold based on
faith thus demonstrating that faith has no means of determining what is or is not real.

What you are doing is making s**t up that sounds good to you and then claiming to know it because it
makes you feel good.

That is what faith is.

It doesn't work. Mankind has had thousands of years of it not working during which time we made next to
no progress and indeed on occasions progress was reversed.

Science, logic, reason, rationality, empirical evidence, THAT is how you determine reality.

And all of the above say that no such place as hell exists.

It's my hope that you'll ponder your options.

And again with the passive aggressive insults and threats.

If I ever truly believed that your god existed I would declare war on both it and it's believers and wipe out both.

If you want to pray for anything, pray that I never become a believer in your whacked out god.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Faith is a means of perception which determines reality in both the secular and spiritual realms through confidence in the veracity and authority of someone you trust. God's Word states that He existed in eternity past and will continue to exist during this parenthetical period of human history and throughout eternity future; it also states in Revelatio ...[text shortened]... work of Jesus Christ is the only zero risk option. It's my hope that you'll ponder your options.

Fear mongering pure and simple.

Originally posted by googlefudge

Faith is a means of perception which determines reality in both the secular and spiritual
realms through confidence in the veracity and authority of someone you trust.

No, faith is believing in stuff for no good reason and despite good reasons not to.

It is not a means of determining reality.

If proof were needed beyond the obvious ...[text shortened]... h.

If you want to pray for anything, pray that I never become a believer in your whacked out god.

Thank you for telling us all what you believe and why.

Originally posted by JS357
Fear mongering pure and simple.

If God and the Lake of Fire do not exist, why would anyone experience an emotion of fear? Why not summarily dismiss any such claims and laugh them off? Why in the world even post to a thread titled: "Is Hell Forever" or contribute to a spirituality forum?

Originally posted by JS357
Very well, I take it nobody remembers how they came to believe in hell. I know I don't remember. It most likely it was told to me by someone whose truthfulness and knowledge I trusted because they were older and knew more about the world in other areas so by induction I concluded they knew about hell. Later, I also believed that various Bible verses referred to h ...[text shortened]... ht say I will find out someday, possibly the hard way, but such threats do not trigger belief in me.

We all must first have an interest in knowing the truth in any realm; without positive volition there is no receptivity, only emotional denial.