Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Of course. Well, i have already given you 4 examples of the good in man, so let us play with them:
kindness
compassion
innocence
love
Did these qualities of goodness exist before man? Are they eternal?
I think they evolved. (Sorry Hinds). It could probably be argued that even dinosaurs exhibited basic examples of goodness, in so much as p ...[text shortened]... into the faces of people, you see their moral weaknesses rather than their strengths?
Thanks
You know I hate that word "evolve" or "evolution" so why can't you just say that what instinctive morality that God has not preprogrammed into us is developed through learning and maturity or perhaps our morality has been progressive and adapted to changing conditions?
Originally posted by RJHindsWhy would the knowledge that you hate the word 'evolution' influence my use of it in a sentence? If i said i hated the expression '6000 years' would that in any way decrease the amount of times you say it?You know I hate that word "evolve" or "evolution" so why can't you just say that what instinctive morality that God has not preprogrammed into us is developed through learning and maturity or perhaps our morality has been progressive and adapted to changing conditions?
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Originally posted by JS357Well if Jesus endorses the use of such fear tactics on immature minds, I'll take the gamble if it results in not spending much time with Him.
Well if Jesus endorses the use of such fear tactics on immature minds, I'll take the gamble if it results in not spending much time with Him.
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So you lean towards thinking that a healthy fear has no place at all in any kind of human development. I think that is unrealistic.
And there are passages about the fear of God. People who go overboard to exaggerate that no other response to God is seen in the Scripture are just eager to erect a strawman argument, a caricature.
I could write all week long about the constraining love of Christ and God motivating our drawing near to God.
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Originally posted by SoothfastYou responded to someone saying:
Heh heh.
Well if Jesus endorses the use of such fear tactics on immature minds, I'll take the gamble if it results in not spending much time with Him.
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But many atheist would not accept any OTHER approach of Jesus either. In the Bible God comes in many ways.
Any way He comes to some people is not good enough.
Jesus told the people of "this generation" -
"And Jesus said, To what then shall I liken the men of this generation, and what are they like?
They are like little children sitting in the marketplace and calling to one another, who say,
We have played the flute to you, and you did not dance; we have sung a dirge, and you did not weep. For John the Baptist has come neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, He has a demon.
The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinner." (Luke 7:31-34)
I think we need to consider if our attitude is that NO approach of Christ to come into our hearts will be accepted. This is simply being closed to God on general principle no matter HOW He frames His invitation.
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 4)"Answering annihilationism’s arguments"
"Answering annihilationism’s arguments"
"Professing evangelical theologians who contend for annihilationism use arguments that are not biblically sound:
4) Eternal conscious torment is incompatible with sin that occurs in time, so eternal conscious torment violates the justice of God. Stott contends that there is a “serious di ...[text shortened]... (Section 4 of 9)
http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution
"Professing evangelical theologians who contend for annihilationism use arguments that are not biblically sound:
5) “Eternal punishment” is satisfied by annihilation, because it is something that is never undone. (Stott, “Judgement and Hell,” p.317)
Response. In Matt 25:41, 46, eternal life is contrasted with eternal punishment. Verse 41 asserts that the unrighteous will share the same punishment as “the devil and his angels.” And Rev 20:10 says that the devil will be “tormented day and night forever and ever” in the lake of fire. Annihilation does not satisfy the biblical concept of eternal punishment." (Section 5 of 9)
http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution
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Note: Four Sections remain. What I've learned and unlearned so far from this scholarly study by Dr. James R. Mook will be the 9th. May I ask what you've also learned or unlearned so far? Yes, letting go is an integral component of learning in any realm. Think back in your own life when your father or mother or older brother or uncle or mentor or someone else taught you how the game of chess is played,
If you lacked a relevant frame of reference or if it was checkers or backgammon (as it was for me) you also had to re-orient your rational thought process. Later on after playing a number of chess games, did you also realize that some of your impressions and preconceptions and unsubstantiated opinions were dead wrong? I sure as hell did. It's all about positive vs. negative volition and the desire to know.
And the point? As the New England Poet Robert Frost once observed: "We grow by shedding like sheep." It's no different for any of us in the spiritual realm. We all begin as ignorant infants and progress by filling the vacuum in our souls with absolute truth.
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyIt is interesting that you seem to think that gathering these people around you who agree with you, somehow makes those who disagree with you, wrong.
[b]"Answering annihilationism’s arguments"
"Professing evangelical theologians who contend for annihilationism use arguments that are not biblically sound:
5) “Eternal punishment” is satisfied by annihilation, because it is something that is never undone. (Stott, “Judgement and Hell,” p.317)
Response. In Matt 25:41, 46, etern ...[text shortened]... begin as ignorant infants and progress by filling the vacuum in our souls with absolute truth.[/b]
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Originally posted by sonshipI think it is an unhealthy fear. I see little sign of moral development in an adult who relies on threats of hell to persuade other adults they should believe certain things.
[b] Well if Jesus endorses the use of such fear tactics on immature minds, I'll take the gamble if it results in not spending much time with Him.
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So you lean towards thinking that a healthy fear has no place at all in any kind of human development. I think that i ...[text shortened]... all week long about the constraining love of Christ and God motivating our drawing near to God.[/b]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development
quote:
Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)
1. Obedience and punishment orientation
(How can I avoid punishment?)
2. Self-interest orientation
(What's in it for me?)
(Paying for a benefit)
Level 2 (Conventional)
3. Interpersonal accord and conformity
(Social norms)
(The good boy/girl attitude)
4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation
(Law and order morality)
Level 3 (Post-Conventional)
5. Social contract orientation
6. Universal ethical principles
(Principled conscience)
The understanding gained in each stage is retained in later stages, but may be regarded by those in later stages as simplistic, lacking in sufficient attention to detail.
unquote
Originally posted by sonshipIf you make something that doesn't work the way you want it to, then that is your fault. By extension, if my maker is wringing his ghostly hands because I'm not accepting invitations to his party in the clouds, then perhaps that is the fault of the maker. I am a product of my genetics (your god's making) and my environment (also your god's making).
I think we need to consider if our attitude is that NO approach of Christ to come into our hearts will be accepted. This is simply being closed to God on general principle no matter HOW He frames His invitation.
Now, before you go off and say I'm giving myself free license to kill whomever I choose because I fancy I'm not responsible for any of my actions, I hasten to point out that wordly law governs the affairs of an empirically verifiable world filled with livings things I genuinely care about, and so I accept the constraints put upon me by human society. I recognize that those constraints are good for me as well as those I care about.
As for this god of yours, well, he seems to be hiding. Nonetheless he wants me to come to his party, or so his hordes of fans say. But there's a strict dress code and lots of funny old rules to be observed to get in the door, not to mention the threat of eternal damnation if I don't show up. Who needs all that bother?
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Originally posted by SoothfastIf you make something that doesn't work the way you want it to, then that is your fault.
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For arguments sake, let's say God is able to bear the penalty for the wrong done by all the world - a terrible penalty which we cannot even imagine costs Him.
Now afterwards, is there any reason to further withdraw from Him?
He has taken in upon Himself the condemnation and provided now to all who would come salvation from both the guilt of our wrong and the power of our sinning nature. Is there NOW any reason to still refuse to be reconciled to Him?
By extension, if my maker is wringing his ghostly hands because I'm not accepting invitations to his party in the clouds, then perhaps that is the fault of the maker.
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Lampoon.
"A new heaven and a new earth in which righteousness dwells " is not a "party in the clouds".
A humanity that so matches the life and nature of Jesus Christ as to collectively be called His Bride and His Wife is not a "party in the clouds."
In fact what is seen in Revelation 21 and 22 is essentially what all human effort and technology is attempting to achieve anyway (minus the presence of God). Lampooning the climax of history as seen in Bible prophecy is really lampooning your own aspirations.
I am a product of my genetics (your god's making) and my environment (also your god's making).
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So you propose a world in which we all take no responsibility for our actions. Is that a livable world ?
How much better is "Your God's design made me do it" than "The Devil made me do it"?
I think you propose an impractical and unlivable world where we can blame everything we do on the Creator's bungling design.
I rather see a DAMAGED design and personal responsibility. There is forgiveness and there is power from wrong doing.
There is provided salvation from both the guilt and power of my sinning.
Should I continue the failed line of reasoning invented by the first man, passing off responsibility?
"And the man [Adam] said, The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me the fruit from the tree, and I ate." (Gen. 3:13)
I think your rationale is just a continuation of men and women immediately wanting to pass the buck on to another. If I meet you in the alley tonight, hit you over the head and steal your wallot, you'd want to hold ME responsible in a court of justice.
"But judge, the poor design of God was the reason I robbed this man."
Do you think that will win the nod of the jury and judge to absolve me from penalties?
Now, before you go off and say I'm giving myself free license to kill whomever I choose because I fancy I'm not responsible for any of my actions,
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Actually I used myself as the culprit and not you.
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I hasten to point out that wordly law governs the affairs of an empirically verifiable world filled with livings things I genuinely care about, and so I accept the constraints put upon me by human society. I recognize that those constraints are good for me as well as those I care about.
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Granted that is true. But on a final and ultimate level, why would be assume there is no Justice?
You're telling me rightly that civil crimes are handled in a verifiable world of humans. Okay, but there is a whole LOT that we get away with. A Jesus Christ demonstrates that there is NOTHING that is not unnoticed by a higher and ultimate Governor.
If He didn't actually act like such a reality exists, then we could mor easily dismiss the matter. But He not only TAUGHT such, He demonatrated such a higher Authority and Power.
Don't you think it behooves me then to take heed?
According to this One saying [and acting] as the Son of God, my reconciliation to God is so serious a matter that He gave up everything to secure my justification.
We should take seriously, that Someone like Jesus Christ took so seriously, the need for our being forgiven before an Final Judge. Some verification has been provided that the need is pertinent.
Why not read through the Gospel with the question "Why did Jesus take so seriously a need which I consider frivolous? Did He know something that I do not know?"
As for this god of yours,
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I think we should establish one thing. If there is gravity, it is not the gravity of Bill Neigh the Science Guy. It is everyone's gravity. And if there is God, that is not my God. That is reality's God.
There is no "Science's gravity" there is just gravity for us all.
God is not "religion's God" He is everyone's and everywhere's God.
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well, he seems to be hiding. Nonetheless he wants me to come to his party, or so his hordes of fans say.
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Well Soothfest, I have read about how God appeared upon a Mount Sinai for forty days in ancient times to the people of Israel. But they quickly got distracted, made a golden calf idol, and demanded that Aaron take them BACK to "the house of bondage" in Egyptian slavery.
The appearance of God in the sight of people - only went so far.
The change they needed was much more intrinsically an INWARD problem.
One lesson from the book of Exodus was that the epiphany of God in a splendid outward way is no guarantee as a remedy to our lust, anxiety, ingratitude, unbelief, idol worship and desiring to return to the dung heap that God could rescue us out of.
Sometime read again how Moses came down the mountain after a many days, saw the pandemonium of the crowds that saw God appearing, and was so upset that he broke the tablets of God's law.
The story could have been called "We haven't even gotten started yet! " about the multitude that actually witnessed God's dramatic manifestation in glory. I believe that this actually happened.
Jesus healed, raised the dead, miraculously fed thousands. They saw dramatic manifestations of God's power. There were only 120 of those in the upper room ready to receive the promised Holy Spirit.
Dramatic manifestations of God to the physical senses, only went so far.
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But there's a strict dress code and lots of funny old rules to be observed to get in the door, not to mention the threat of eternal damnation if I don't show up. Who needs all that bother?
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Funny rules. Strict does and don't. Well I went on Soothfest to learn that Jesus wanted me to abide in Him as a living and available Person who could join to me in an "organic" union.
I know nothing of a Christian life which is " Now go off and self reform. Be a good person on your own power."
I know everything of letting Christ live again within me as He spontaneously flows into the various parts of my soul. This is called the grace of Christ. This the taking of Christ as our inward enjoyment in His form as "a life giving Spirit".
He is unusual yet available to fellowship with, commune in and with and to live in harmony with His presence. Christ's life is applicable.
In a real sense the Christian can "download" the very life and presence of Jesus.
"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)