"Is Hell Forever?"

Originally posted by sonship
I know everything of letting Christ live again within me as He spontaneously flows into the various parts of my soul...

...In a real sense the Christian can "download" the very life and presence of Jesus...

I don't recognise these phrases as part of the Christian experience as described in the Bible. They sound more mystic, than Christian.

Originally posted by divegeester
I don't recognise these phrases as part of the Christian experience as described in the Bible. They sound more mystic, than Christian.

I don't recognise these phrases as part of the Christian experience as described in the Bible. They sound more mystic, than Christian.
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I perfectly agree that to "download Christ" could only make some theological sense to people of the 21rst century AD. (Maybe "upload" is appropriate also.)

But that is the power of the truth of the Gospel. As the ages change we do find new expressions, if needed, to convey the meaning of Scripture.

Christ is Risen.
Christ is Available.
Christ is Receivabe.
Christ is Enterable.

Christ alone lived the perfect human life.
And as "life giving Spirit" this Man, this Son of God / Son of Man can be distributed into millions of people.

God, listen, .. God so fully stood behind this life and honored it that He has exalted it to the highest peak of the universe and made this Fine human life distributable so that we can ACCESS Him.

This that I have uttered I think is fully consistent with the New Testament. The goal is not to be original or creative in speech but to help people to understand.

Christ, His Person and His life can be accessed and made to live AGAIN in us.

This passage is not sentimental but actual:

" That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ..." (Eph. 3:17)

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 5)
"Answering annihilationism’s arguments"

"Professing evangelical theologians who contend for annihilationism use arguments that are not biblically sound:

5) “Eternal punishment” is satisfied by annihilation, because it is something that is never undone. (Stott, “Judgement and Hell,” p.317)

Response. In Matt 25:41, 46, ...[text shortened]... all begin as ignorant infants and progress by filling the vacuum in our souls with absolute truth.

"Answering annihilationism’s arguments"

"Professing evangelical theologians who contend for annihilationism use arguments that are not biblically sound:

6) “Fire” depicts total consumption and therefore annihilation. (Stott, “Judgement and Hell,” p. 316.)

Response. Jesus states that when “fire” is used of eternal punishment, it causes agonizing pain—“wailing and gnashing of teeth” (Matt 13:41-42, 4950). And the Revelation shows that the “lake of fire” is a place of endless “torment” (Rev 20:10). Furthermore, in Luke 16:23-28, the rich man in Hades is “tormented in this flame.” When used of eternal punishment, “fire” signifies intense pain being inflicted but not total consumption. Rev 14:10-11; 20:10 teach that those being tormented with the “fire and brimstone” of eternal punishment will be tormented “day and night forever and ever.” Also note that 1,000 years after being sent to the “lake of fire” (Rev 19:20), the beast and the false prophet will still exist (Rev 20:10)." (Section 6 of 9)
http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]Is Hell Forever? Evangelicals and Eternal Retribution
(Reprinted with permission from Voice, Sept./Oct, 2001. By Dr. James R. Mook)

"Will the destiny of the unsaved be eternal conscious torment or annihilation (total cessation of existence)? The eternal conscious punishment of the lost has always been a fundamental doctrine of Christian ortho ...[text shortened]... estions will be reserved until the presentation of this scholarly study is completed. Thank you.[/b]

Does it matter? We will all find out sooner or later. Some from hell itself and some from the Kingdom of God.
What we think does not alter the reality.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]"Answering annihilationism’s arguments"

"Professing evangelical theologians who contend for annihilationism use arguments that are not biblically sound:

6) “Fire” depicts total consumption and therefore annihilation. (Stott, “Judgement and Hell,” p. 316.)

Response. Jesus states that when “fire” is used of eternal punishmen ...[text shortened]... ction 6 of 9)
http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution[/b]

What a depressing vision of God you cling to. I hope you can find a way to see the gospel differently.

Originally posted by divegeester
What a depressing vision of God you cling to. I hope you can find a way to see the gospel differently.

is there more joy in your portrayal of God ? A far as I can see, according to your version:

He lies.
His apostles cannot be trusted to accurately represent His teaching.
He gives parables which He knows cannot possibly be true, ie (Luke 16:19-33).
Or at least a subordinate - His Son, cannot be trusted to teach accurately.
He sounds like he could learn some ethical lessons from Barney the Dinosaur.
Thirty nine of the sixty six books of His Bible are contemptible.
His published warnings really don't need to be taken too seriously.
If He comes to live within our hearts, it is not enough. This other person, not Himself, has to supplement His presence.
All who truly hate God can be assured they will jump laughing into oblivion really getting away for what they have done.
Warnings of judgment beyond this life are exaggerations.

Is all this suppose to be much to joy over ?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 6)
"Answering annihilationism’s arguments"

"Professing evangelical theologians who contend for annihilationism use arguments that are not biblically sound:

6) “Fire” depicts total consumption and therefore annihilation. (Stott, “Judgement and Hell,” p. 316.)

Response. Jesus states that when “fire” is used of eternal pun ...[text shortened]... (Section 6 of 9)
http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution

"Answering annihilationism’s arguments"

"Professing evangelical theologians who contend for annihilationism use arguments that are not biblically sound:

7) “Death” and “destruction” prove that the punishment is annihilation, not unending conscious torment. Annihilationists assume that death and destruction can mean only annihilation. (Stott, “Judgement and Hell,” p. 316; Pinnock, “The Conditional View,” p. 146.)

Response. The concept of death in Scripture never means nonexistence, but rather separation. Physical death is separation of the soul from the body (Eccl 12:7; James 2:26; John 19:30; Phil 1:23-24; 2 Cor 5:8; 2 Pet 1:14), not cessation of existence. Spiritual death is separation from fellowship with God, not cessation of existence. In Genesis 3:22-24, spiritual death is separation from blessing and fellowship with God. Adam and Eve were not annihilated. According to Eph 2:1, unsaved people are “dead in trespasses and sins,” which is further clarified in verse 12 as being “without Christ.”

Also, studies of the biblical terms used for “destruction” show that ruin, not nonexistence, is the result indicated by these terms. The verb apollumi (“to destroy” ) and the noun apoleia (“destruction” ) refer to ruin, not to cessation of existence. Examples: (1) the “lost” coin of Luke 15:8-9; (2) the broken old wineskins of Matt 9:17; (3) John 3:16—existence in punishment (perishing) contrasted with existence in blessing (eternal life). (D. A. Carson, The Gagging of God, Zondervan, 1966, pp. 521-522.) Also, note that katastrepho and katastrophe mean destruction in the sense of “overturning, ruin,” not cessation of existence. Examples: overturning tables (Matt 21:12); ruining hearers (2 Tim 2:14); destroying Sodom and Gomorrah by burning to ashes (2 Pet 2:6). And olethros means destruction by changing to another kind of existence (1 Cor 5:5; 1 Thess 5:3; 2 Thess 1:9; 1 Tim 6:9)." (Section 7 of 9)
http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Does it matter? We will all find out sooner or later. Some from hell itself and some from the Kingdom of God.
What we think does not alter the reality.

"Note: This exhaustive study by Dr. James R. Mook will be presented in the same nine sections in which it was written. I'm well aware of the fact that the doctrine of Lake Of Fire as revealed in the New Testament Book of Revelation has been a highly contested biblical truth within this online spirituality forum for many years. In the interest of objective discussion with substantiated personal opinion, let's harness our emotions in order to promote civility with tolerance of opposing points of view. Please feel free to comment and ask relevant questions at will. My own comments and questions will be reserved until the presentation of this scholarly study is completed. Thank you." (OP)

Originally posted by sonship
is there more joy in your portrayal of God?

My version of God hasn't created and isn't maintaining a place of unbelievable horror, where he supernaturally keeps billions of people alive in perpetual torture for eternity, because they have not accepted or heard of the gospel message.

I'd say there is more joy in my portrayal of God yes.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]"Note: This exhaustive study by Dr. James R. Mook will be presented in the same nine sections in which it was written. I'm well aware of the fact that the doctrine of Lake Of Fire as revealed in the New Testament Book of Revelation has been a highly contested biblical truth within this online spirituality forum for many years. In the interest of ...[text shortened]... s will be reserved until the presentation of this scholarly study is completed. Thank you." (OP)[/b]

Repeatedly posting the words of other people who support your point of view is not "objective discussion".

Originally posted by sonship
As for this god of yours,
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I think we should establish one thing. If there is gravity, it is not the gravity of Bill Neigh the Science Guy. It is everyone's gravity. And if there is God, that is not my God. That is reality's God.

There is no "Science's gravity" there is just gravity for us all.
God is not "religion's God" He is everyone's and everywhere's God.

Yeeea-a-a-ahhh, but...I think you know what I mean when I say "This god of yours." You can make all sorts of wonderful arguments for a god, but at the end of the day it doesn't win you much if your audience doesn't believe in the god's existence. Right? That makes the god "your" god, and not the god of others.

But seriously, you can't tell me that God appearing before one guy atop Mount Sinai is much to go on. What's with God and middlemen, anyway? If God has something wonderful to say to mankind, why not say it directly to everyone the world over, and not merely to the odd "chosen one" every generation or two? Is it a bandwidth problem, or incurable shyness?

So you responded with a four-part saga. You certainly get an "A" for effort, Sonship. If I find some time, I may be back.

Originally posted by Soothfast

Yeeea-a-a-ahhh, but...I think you know what I mean when I say "This god of yours." You can make all sorts of wonderful arguments for a god, but at the end of the day it doesn't win you much if your audience doesn't believe in the god's existence. Right? That makes the god "your" god, and not the god of others.
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That depends on what "the end of the day" means.
But for now I get your drift.

Okay, MY Beloved God. I think you should get to know Him and call Him "ours".


But seriously, you can't tell me that God appearing before one guy atop Mount Sinai is much to go on.
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I was referring to God granting the whole nation of Israel an epiphany upon Mt. Sinai. Read of this from Exodus 19:10 through to verse 25 to get a the facts straight.

It is important in understanding the Bible to be sure you have the record of what happened clearly in your mind.

Actually, I was not referring to the individual appearing of God to Moses in the burning bush event in chapter 3. But in the chapter 19 and on there were threee levels of people viewing God ranging from intimate and close to more distant and fearful.

1.) Moses at the top of the mountian (possibly with Joshua) most closely before God.

2.) The seventy elders at some distance viewing God's glory upon a throne.

3.) The majority of the thousands of Isralites hearing the awesome voice heavenly trumpet and viewing a fearful darkness of God's holy visitation at a distance.

This was an epiphany arranged and designed by tliving God with the details arranged by His power, authority, and sovereignty. This was an historical first - God appearing to a huge collection of people on earth.

The point I made was how quickly it wore off. The vast majority of the people remained inwardly unchanged. Something deeper than a sense perception encounter with God is man's deeper need. It is hard to miss this lesson in reading Exodus.


What's with God and middlemen, anyway? If God has something wonderful to say to mankind, why not say it directly to everyone the world over, and not merely to the odd "chosen one" every generation or two? Is it a bandwidth problem, or incurable shyness?
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Well, that's witty and clever and all that. But I tend to analyze the word of God more comprehensively. And it says that He spoke in to fathers in many portions and in many ways

" God, having spoken of old in many portions and in many ways to the fathers in the prophets. has at the last of these days spoken to us in the Son ..." (Heb 1:1a)

God spoke in many manners and even in many kinds of literary ways. He spoke to individuals. He spoke to multitudes. He spoke in spectacular ways. And He spoke with a still small voice.

In the last of these days He spoke to us in the Person of Jesus Christ - His entire life, death, resurrection, ascension and dispensing of His Spirit into redeemed and receiving people is part of God's speaking.

I am serious about seeing how God is reaching out to us in many portions and in many ways and ultimately how "the Word became flesh" in such a Person as Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 6)
"Answering annihilationism’s arguments"

"Professing evangelical theologians who contend for annihilationism use arguments that are not biblically sound:

7) “Death” and “destruction” prove that the punishment is annihilation, not unending conscious torment. Annihilationists assume that death and destruction can mean only annihi ...[text shortened]... (Section 7 of 9)
http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution

"Answering annihilationism’s arguments"

"Professing evangelical theologians who contend for annihilationism use arguments that are not biblically sound:

Theological conclusion: Annihilationism is false teaching. It is not evangelical doctrine.

•It exalts God’s love above His other attributes and so distorts the doctrine of God’s love and God’s nature. It is ultimately founded on human emotion and human reason, and so it humanizes God by defining God’s love and justice by human concepts of love and justice.

•It diminishes God’s justice and the nature of sin. If annihilation is a sufficient payment for sin, then sin is not a violation of God’s eternal holiness. And if annihilation is the punishment of sin, and sin is against an eternally holy God, then the punishment does not fit the crime, because annihilation is not an eternal punishment.

•It devalues the death of Christ by making His death less than a truly eternal punishment for sin. And it may lead to the belief that Christ was annihilated, since in His death He paid the penalty for sin which, in annihilationism, is cessation of all existence. If so, then the Son of God would either have been temporarily nonexistent, and the Trinity would have had only two members—or the human and divine natures would have been temporarily divided. And if, in response, it is argued that Jesus need have suffered only a token punishment for sin, rather than annihilation, then, again, God’s holiness and justice—and the content and meaning of Christ’s payment—would be diminished.

•The doctrine of eternal retribution asserts the awful judgment of sin and so is not immediately “comfortable.” But we can and must be confident that it is God’s truth, revealed in Scripture.

•It magnifies God’s holiness and justice—and love, since His love reaches out to save people from such a terrible punishment. It magnifies God’s salvation through the death and resurrection of His Son. And it is used to effectively persuade people to receive salvation through Christ.

•Biblically, theologically, and evangelistically, we dare not deny the doctrine of eternal retribution. We must embrace and proclaim it for the glory of God and the salvation of people."
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"Dr. James Mook is Professor of Systematic Theology at Capital Bible Seminary(link is external) in Lanham, MD. He is a graduate of Washington Bible College(link is external) (BA) and Dallas Theological Seminary(link is external) (ThM, ThD) and served as pastor of Trinity Bible Church from 1986-1990. He is a Contributor to Coming to Grips with Genesis: Biblical Authority and the Age of the Earth, Master Books, 2008." (Section 7 of 9) http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Is Hell Forever?

The better, and primary question, is "does hell exist?"

Because until you have actually established that there is such a place and condition as
hell, then you are all arguing over the properties of a fictional location.

If you cannot prove that hell exists, then you cannot prove that hell has any given properties.


So... Prove to us that hell actually exists.

Originally posted by googlefudge
The better, and primary question, is "does hell exist?"

Because until you have actually established that there is such a place and condition as
hell, then you are all arguing over the properties of a fictional location.

If you cannot prove that hell exists, then you cannot prove that hell has any given properties.


So... Prove to us that hell actually exists.

Originally posted by googlefudge
"If you cannot prove that hell exists, then you cannot prove that hell has any given properties."
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Pleased you're interested in this thread's subject; may I ask what types of proof regarding the existence of "hell" you require?