"Is Hell Forever?"

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Of course. Well, i have already given you 4 examples of the good in man, so let us play with them:

kindness
compassion
innocence
love

Did these qualities of goodness exist before man? Are they eternal?

I think they evolved. (Sorry Hinds). It could probably be argued that even dinosaurs exhibited basic examples of goodness, in so much as p ...[text shortened]... into the faces of people, you see their moral weaknesses rather than their strengths?

Thanks

It could probably be argued that even dinosaurs exhibited basic examples of goodness, in so much as parenthood no doubt evoked behaviour of love for their offspring.

I believe that most reptiles never even see their offspring, much less develop any "behavior of love" for them.

'Goodness' though can not be eternal, for nothing is.

No matter how much any atheist starts to make sense, they eventually go back to 'canon'.

Any how, i am interested to hear why, when you look into the faces of people, you see their moral weaknesses rather than their strengths?

I think this is because, in any random sampling, there are way more people who show their moral weakness on their face than those who show their moral strength. Take a walk through the streets of any large metropolis, and my bet is you see far, far more people showing vanity, depression, foolishness and loneliness than you see showing kindness, compassion, innocence and love. There are always exceptions, but these exceptions also seem more likely to be 'shouted' down by those showing the baser emotions. The 'grumpy' always seem to outnumber the 'joyful'. Perhaps it's the environment. Perhaps I'd see more 'joyfulness' if I moved to the country instead of living in a city.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]"Biblical support of the fundamental doctrine"

"The doctrine of eternal conscious punishment asserts that after physical death on earth, the soul of the unsaved person immediately enters a state and place of continual conscious torment. The condemned state will culminate in bodily resurrection, final judgment, and then unending torment in the ...[text shortened]... Section 2 of 9) http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution[/b]

In your OP you (or rather Dr. James R. Mook does) mention the two prevailing opinions of post-Judgement punishment, either 'unending torment' or 'annihilation'.

Can you tell me which school of thought Dr. Mook follows? So far it appears to be the first one.

Originally posted by Suzianne
[b]It could probably be argued that even dinosaurs exhibited basic examples of goodness, in so much as parenthood no doubt evoked behaviour of love for their offspring.

I believe that most reptiles never even see their offspring, much less develop any "behavior of love" for them.

'Goodness' though can not be eternal, for nothing is.

No m ...[text shortened]... nment. Perhaps I'd see more 'joyfulness' if I moved to the country instead of living in a city.[/b]

"Perhaps it's the environment. Perhaps I'd see more 'joyfulness' if I moved to the country instead of living in a city."

I think so. You'd likely see fewer people who treat you like a stranger so say g'day or equivalent.

Is there anyone who creates a post asserting in sum that "Hell is Forever" who is not posting it as a fear tactic?

Originally posted by JS357
Is there anyone who creates a post asserting in sum that "Hell is Forever" who is not posting it as a fear tactic?

Psalm 37:8
Refrain from anger and turn from wrath; do not fret--it leads only to evil.

Or as Yoda famously plagiarised it:
Fear Leads to Anger. Anger Leads to Hate. Hate Leads to Suffering.

How true this is for this dreadful teaching of eternal suffering.

Originally posted by Suzianne
[b]It could probably be argued that even dinosaurs exhibited basic examples of goodness, in so much as parenthood no doubt evoked behaviour of love for their offspring.

I believe that most reptiles never even see their offspring, much less develop any "behavior of love" for them.

'Goodness' though can not be eternal, for nothing is.

No m ...[text shortened]... nment. Perhaps I'd see more 'joyfulness' if I moved to the country instead of living in a city.[/b]

I believe that most reptiles never even see their offspring, much less develop any "behavior of love" for them

Okay, perhaps i went back a bit far to make a point. Was kinda hoping the dinosaur reference would give Hinds an ulcer. (Joke). Early mammals though certainly had a maternal instinct.

[/b]No matter how much any atheist starts to make sense, they eventually go back to 'canon'.[b]

Ditto.

[b]I think this is because, in any random sampling, there are way more people who show their moral weakness on their face than those who show their moral strength.[b]

I think we live in different worlds Suzianne. I'm constantly heartened by the goodness of the people i see around me. Sure, they are often preoccupied by their own woes and priorities, but an old woman falls over in the street and you watch how many people rush to help or show genuine concern. End of the day, we are united by own humanity (not a fictional God).

*Edit - I haven't quite mastered the whole 'bold text' thing yet.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 2)
"Biblical support of the fundamental doctrine"

"The doctrine of eternal conscious punishment asserts that after physical death on earth, the soul of the unsaved person immediately enters a state and place of continual conscious torment. The condemned state will culminate in bodily resurrection, final judgment, and then unending torment i ...[text shortened]... ." (Section 2 of 9) http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution

"Answering annihilationism’s arguments"

"Professing evangelical theologians who contend for annihilationism use arguments that are not biblically sound.

1) God in His love would never be cruel and vindictive, so He would never punish His enemies endlessly. (Clark Pinnock, “The Conditional View,” Four Views on Hell, ed. William Crockett; Zondervan, 1992, p. 140).

2) The doctrine of eternal conscious punishment in a torture chamber is emotionally repugnant and intolerable. (Pinnock, “Fire, Then Nothing,” Christianity Today, 20 March 1987, pp. 40-41; John R. W. Stott, “Judgement and Hell,” Evangelical Essentials: A Liberal-Evangelical Dialogue, IVP, 1988, pp. 314-15.)

Response. These are arguments from human emotion—which should never be the measure of truth. Also, if one has difficulty reconciling eternal punishment with divine love, it is just as difficult to reconcile divine love with any punishment. (Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, p. 1150) Furthermore, it is presumptuous for finite, fallen creatures to claim to know the full extent of divine love or how it harmonizes with divine justice. Finally, in heaven our perspective and emotions will be different as we see things from the divine perspective.

Indeed, the saints in heaven (who are morally perfected) are depicted as crying out for avenging judgment of the wicked and praising God for executing this vengeance (see Rev 6:10; 19:1-3).

3) Only God is immortal. God grants immortality only to believers. The doctrine of the immortality of the soul is from Greek philosophy. (Edward Fudge, The Fire that Consumes, Houston: Providential, 1982, pp. 51ff.) Annihilationists believe that Tertullian and Augustine were especially responsible for corrupting Christian theology with the Platonic concept of the immortality of the soul. (Pinnock, “The Destruction of the Finally Impenitent,” Criswell Theological Review, 4/2, 1990, pp. 246-47.)

Response. Passages asserting that conscious existence continues after death for both the righteous (2 Cor 5:6-8; Phil 1:23) and the unrighteous (Luke 16:19-31) support the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. In this respect, it must be noted that annihilationists assume that human “immortality” means a blessed life, whereas in mainstream Christian theology it means existence.

Second, while Tertullian and Augustine have some affinity with aspects of Platonic thought on the immortality of the soul, they base their doctrine on Scripture. And their concept of immortality was not that of Plato, which included the preexistence of the soul and the belief that the immortality of the soul is inherent. Rather, orthodox Christian theologians have always held that the soul was created and given immortality by God.

(Evangelicals should beware of being associated with Edward Fudge concerning immortality, since he believes that the soul is not a separate aspect of man, and, at death, the whole person becomes nonexistent until the resurrection. Only at the resurrection will God give immortality to believers. The unrighteous will be raised only to be annihilated.)" (Section 3 of 9)
http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution

Originally posted by divegeester
Psalm 37:8
[b]Refrain from anger and turn from wrath; do not fret--it leads only to evil.

Or as Yoda famously plagiarised it:
Fear Leads to Anger. Anger Leads to Hate. Hate Leads to Suffering.

How true this is for this dreadful teaching of eternal suffering.[/b]

Dreadful is right. It's designed to be.

The thing is, if fear drives someone toward belief, more fearsome things than the current Christian vision of hell can be imagined, combined with a way to avoid them that is other than Christianity. So you have to choose and they would all say "don't choose wrongly". For example, the Christian hell is only for the individual who does not meet the criteria for eternal bliss. Imagine a religion that teaches that all your loved ones will be sent to hell with you, and you will all watch each other suffer and be forced to inflict the suffering on one another, forever.

There is a well known psychological phenomenon called the Stockholm Syndrome, wherein a hostage develops affection and loyalty toward the captor. I think in some ways, an individual who is overly suggestible may develop a relationship toward a "god" (or a human preacher or a religion) not unlike the victim in a Stockholm syndrome situation, and come to feel loyalty and devotion toward whoever it is that holds the keys to their freedom and a gun in the other hand. It's possible that some Christians and members of other threatening religions are so afflicted.

It's as if the positive aspects of Christianity are not enough to drive people toward faith and terrible aspects have to be imagined and taught too. I suppose this is why the concept of hell arose in the early church. It certainly doesn't seem to be compatible with Jesus's love message.

Originally posted by JS357
Is there anyone who creates a post asserting in sum that "Hell is Forever" who is not posting it as a fear tactic?

Is there anyone who creates a post asserting in sum that "Hell is Forever" who is not posting it as a fear tactic?
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Some observations.

1.) Jesus talked about a lot of things, many, many things.

2.) Jesus also talked about WHOM men should fear and why.

3.) Though some preacher may hammer exclusively on the FEAR teachings, it doesn't make the passages not true.

4.) Some FEAR is legitimate. This is true in natural life and in the spiritual realm. We are motivated towards some things because legitimate FEAR plays a part.

I fear to be late paying my taxes.
I fear to neglect my children's education.

5.) Some exploiting fear as a motivation is just that, exploitation. It doesn't necessarily mean the fear is never legitimate as a motivator.

6.) Consulting the biographies and testimonies of many Christians it is obvious that many reasons went into the act of believing in Christ.

If I had the time I would like to compile a list of, say, 100 personal Christian testimonies of conversion that say nothing about Hell. I'm a sure it could be done.

7.) At the present time I am persuaded that if Justice does not exist then neither does Injustice.

8.) From reading the New Testament it is apparent to me that Jesus Christ took the possibility of men not being reconciled to God, more seriously than anyone has ever taken anything.

Jesus took the "danger" of us not being reconciled to God and not being forgiven for our sins so seriously and personally, it prompts us to believe He must have known what He was talking about.

Either that or He was insane. I don't think Jesus was insane. I'm betting He was most sober minded.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Is there anyone who creates a post asserting in sum that "Hell is Forever" who is not posting it as a fear tactic?
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Some observations.

1.) Jesus talked about a lot of things, many, many things.

2.) Jesus also talked about WHOM men should fear and wh ...[text shortened]... or He was insane. I don't think Jesus was insane. I'm betting He was most sober minded.[/b]

You have talked about this before and you are completely wrong in my opinion. You will find nothing in the NT that talks about fear bringing people to Christ. The scripture says "it is the law that is the schoolmaster who brings us to Christ". Gal 3:24

Originally posted by divegeester
You have talked about this before and you are completely wrong in my opinion. You will find nothing in the NT that talks about fear bringing people to Christ. The scripture says "it is the law that is the schoolmaster who brings us to Christ".

Divegeester, perhaps you do not know the New Testament well enough.

Could you tell me what your impression is of this passage from Jude ?

"And on some have mercy, on those who are wavering.

Save them by snatching them out of the fire.

On others have mercy in fear, hating even the inner garment spotted from the flesh." (Jude 22,23)

This was written by "Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, to those who are called, beloved in God the Father, and kept by Jesus Christ." (v1)

Is there no motivation of "fear" in this instruction in laboring with the Gospel ?

Originally posted by divegeester
You have talked about this before and you are completely wrong in my opinion. You will find nothing in the NT that talks about fear bringing people to Christ. The scripture says "it is the law that is the schoolmaster who brings us to Christ". Gal 3:24

It says those things also.

Originally posted by sonship
Divegeester, perhaps you do not know the New Testament well enough.

Could you tell me what your impression is of this passage from [b]Jude ?

[quote] "And on some have mercy, on those who are wavering.

Save them be by snatching them out of the fire.

On others have mercy in fear, hating even the inner garment spotted from the flesh." (Ju ...[text shortened]... (v1)

Is there no motivation of "fear" in this instruction in laboring with the Gospel ?[/b]

Your little barbed comment about me not knowing the NT well enough doesn't move me sonship. I take no pride in my knowledge of the scriptures as I don't consider myself an authority. But you clearly do think you are an authority and that little comment speaks volumes to me about your pride.

I'll be back with a response regarding Jude and your claim that the scripture supports fear driving people to Christ.

Ok I've had a look at the context and you argument is very weak sonship. Any reader can easily see that Paul's warning to Jude, who is already a disciple (and therefore not seeking Christ through fear or any other motivation), is to fear the sin of those whom he is trying to convert. To be honest I'm a little surprised that you can't see this for yourself.

Originally posted by divegeester
Your little barbed comment about me not knowing the NT well enough doesn't move me sonship. I take no pride in my knowledge of the scriptures as I don't consider myself an authority. But you clearly do think you are an authority and that little comment speaks volumes to me about your pride.

I'll be back with a response regarding Jude and your claim that the scripture supports fear driving people to Christ.

Your little barbed comment about me not knowing the NT well enough doesn't move me sonship. I take no pride in my knowledge of the scriptures as I don't consider myself an authority. But you clearly do think you are an authority and that little comment speaks volumes to me about your pride.

I'll be back with a response regarding Jude and your claim that the scripture supports fear driving people to Christ.
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Volumes, volumes huh? Wow.

Well I'll tell you, some people who wax humble and say things like " I am not a Bible scholar " or " I am not an authority " sometimes actually seem to be saying " I know EVERYTHING! "

But this passage which you dispute could not be the only one in which fear is a legitimate part of the Gospel work. Let me look at you comment below.