1. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    21 Jul '15 13:373 edits
    Is Hell Forever? Evangelicals and Eternal Retribution
    (Reprinted with permission from Voice, Sept./Oct, 2001. By Dr. James R. Mook)

    "Will the destiny of the unsaved be eternal conscious torment or annihilation (total cessation of existence)? The eternal conscious punishment of the lost has always been a fundamental doctrine of Christian orthodoxy. Tertullian, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Edwards, Pieper, Berkhof, Shedd, Chafer, Erickson, and other theologians affirmed the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment as a biblical essential-explicitly defining divine eternal “punishment” against “annihilation.” (Robert A. Peterson, Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment, Presbyterian & Reformed Publishing Co., 1995, pp. 97-137.)

    "But in recent years some prominent professing evangelicals have advocated conditional annihilationism (which includes the concept of postmortem evangelizing of those who die without having heard the gospel). Examples: Philip E. Hughes, Clark H. Pinnock, John R. W. Stott, and John W. Wenham. http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution

    Note: This exhaustive study by Dr. James R. Mook will be presented in the same nine sections in which it was written. I'm well aware of the fact that the doctrine of Lake Of Fire as revealed in the New Testament Book of Revelation has been a highly contested biblical truth within this online spirituality forum for many years. In the interest of objective discussion with substantiated personal opinion, let's harness our emotions in order to promote civility with tolerance of opposing points of view. Please feel free to comment and ask relevant questions at will. My own comments and questions will be reserved until the presentation of this scholarly study is completed. Thank you.
  2. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    21 Jul '15 13:38
    Biblical support of the fundamental doctrine

    "The doctrine of eternal conscious punishment asserts that after physical death on earth, the soul of the unsaved person immediately enters a state and place of continual conscious torment. The condemned state will culminate in bodily resurrection, final judgment, and then unending torment in the “lake of fire.” Following are major passages supporting this doctrine.

    Dan 12:1-2 contrasts “everlasting life” with “everlasting contempt” (NKJV). If “life” will be unending conscious blessing, “contempt” must also be unending conscious disgrace.

    Matt 25:46 contrasts the condemnation of the wicked, “everlasting punishment,” with the blessing of the righteous, “eternal life.” So if eternal life will be consciously experienced without end, “everlasting punishment” will also be consciously experienced without end.

    And since verse 41 designates “everlasting fire” as the means of the “everlasting punishment,” then the punishment will indeed be agonizing.

    The unimaginable pain is depicted by the “wailing and gnashing of teeth of the wicked in the furnace of fire” (13:42, 50), to which they will be sent in judgment by Christ at His Second Advent (13:41-42, 49-50). (Note that the Lord Jesus spoke much about hell and eternal conscious punishment examples: Matt 5:21-22, 27-30; 8:1112; 10:28; 13:30, 40-43, 49-50;18:6-9; 23:15, 33; 24:51; 25:30, 41, 46; Mark 9:42-48; Luke 16:19-31.)

    In Mark 9:42-48, Jesus uses Is. 66:24 (three times in the Majority Text) to give a picture of people in hell: “Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” The picture is of unending consumption by worms and fire-a consumption that never ends. 2 Thess 1:9 says that unbelievers will be “punished with everlasting destruction,” indicating a process of destruction that never ends.

    Revelation 14:9-11 depicts unbelievers as ultimately objects of the unmitigated “wrath of God” by being “tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.” That this conscious torment will never end is shown by verse 11: “the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night.” This passage depicts people being tormented without end by burning without end. Revelation 20:10-15 sustains this interpretation by using identical terms in v. 10 to describe “the devil,” “the beast and the false prophet” in “the lake of fire and brimstone” being “tormented day and night forever and ever.” And this unending torment in “the lake of fire” will then be experienced by the unrighteous in “the second death” (20:14-15)" (Section 1 of 9)

    http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jul '15 13:54
    Would your constant posting of the opinions of others say something not too flattering about yourself?
  4. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    21 Jul '15 14:191 edit
    “Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” The picture is of unending consumption by worms and fire-a consumption that never ends. 2 Thess 1:9 says that unbelievers will be “punished with everlasting destruction,” indicating a process of destruction that never ends.'

    To be honest, (and as someone who does not believe in the divine authorship of the bible) my first reaction is how cruel and depraved the humans were who wrote those words.
  5. Standard memberKellyJay
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    21 Jul '15 15:07
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    “Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” The picture is of unending consumption by worms and fire-a consumption that never ends. 2 Thess 1:9 says that unbelievers will be “punished with everlasting destruction,” indicating a process of destruction that never ends.'

    To be honest, (and as someone who does not believe in the divine a ...[text shortened]... of the bible) my first reaction is how cruel and depraved the humans were who wrote those words.
    Hell was not created for humans at first, but Satan and the angels that joined him, and after
    we joined him we entered into the same judgment for the same crimes.
  6. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    21 Jul '15 15:21
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]Is Hell Forever? Evangelicals and Eternal Retribution
    (Reprinted with permission from Voice, Sept./Oct, 2001. By Dr. James R. Mook)

    "Will the destiny of the unsaved be eternal conscious torment or annihilation (total cessation of existence)? The eternal conscious punishment of the lost has always been a fundamental doctrine of Christian ortho ...[text shortened]... estions will be reserved until the presentation of this scholarly study is completed. Thank you.[/b]
    Is Hell Forever?

    No... I guess it's not hell then, just purgatory
  7. Standard membersonship
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    21 Jul '15 15:314 edits
    Question for anyone:

    How do you know that compared to a world in which God's will is completely fulfilled, you are not in a kind of "torment" already right now ?

    Compared to the bliss of the consummation of the kingdom of God, how do you know the difference of your present state could not already be viewed as "torment" ?

    If you go out today, look into the faces of people.
    Don't you see vanity, depression, foolishness, loneliness, guiltiness? I do.

    Compared to the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21,22) maybe people are already being tormented by being alienated from God in a fallen sin filled world.
  8. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    21 Jul '15 15:391 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    Question for anyone:

    How do you know that compared to a world in which God's will is completely fulfilled, you are not in a kind of "torment" already right now ?

    Compared to the bliss of the consummation of the kingdom of God, how do you know the difference of your present state could not already be viewed as "torment" ?
    Sounds kinda Buddhist - except for the god bit.

    I could never go for any conception of a Christian god.

    If I kneel or reflect (on my situation) , it is to be humble to myself, not to any god. I engage in spiritual practice to put my ego in it's right place, not to 'bow down' to anyone.

    If there is a heaven then the most intelligent of beings there would be equal to the most stupid.
  9. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    21 Jul '15 15:521 edit
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Hell was not created for humans at first, but Satan and the angels that joined him, and after
    we joined him we entered into the same judgment for the same crimes.
    Hell was not created at all Kelly, not by a God anyway. (His non-existence put to one side).
  10. Standard membersonship
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    21 Jul '15 15:58
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Sounds kinda Buddhist - except for the god bit.

    I could never go for any conception of a Christian god.

    If I kneel or reflect (on my situation) , it is to be humble to myself, not to any god. I engage in spiritual practice to put my ego in it's right place, not to 'bow down' to anyone.

    If there is a heaven then the most intelligent of beings there would be equal to the most stupid.
    Sounds kinda Buddhist - except for the god bit.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    That observation and a buck seventy will get you a coffee at Seven-Eleven.

    Astronomy "sounds like" - "Twinkle, twinkle little star."
    Edwin Hubble and Mother Goose must be the same.


    I could never go for any conception of a Christian god.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Do you have a concept of a final moral justice of any kind?
    Do you have a concept of the moral scales being put in balance ultimately is any way?


    If I kneel or reflect (on my situation) , it is to be humble to myself, not to any god. I engage in spiritual practice to put my ego in it's right place, not to 'bow down' to anyone.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    C'mon karoly azcel. Wouldn't you love to "blow down" this pesky Christian talking to you right now ? We'll see.


    If there is a heaven then the most intelligent of beings there would be equal to the most stupid.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Blow Down #1 !
    Next ?
  11. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    21 Jul '15 15:58
    Originally posted by sonship

    If you go out today, look into the faces of people.
    Don't you see vanity, depression, foolishness, loneliness, guiltiness? I do.

    Compared to the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21,22) maybe people are already being tormented by being alienated from God in a fallen sin filled world.[/b]
    Sure; but i also see kindness and compassion, innocence and love. Perhaps, as an atheist (many Christians shriek in disbelief) i see the good in man, more than i see the sin.

    Life is a rare and precious thing.
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    21 Jul '15 16:31
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Hell was not created for humans at first, but Satan and the angels that joined him, and after
    we joined him we entered into the same judgment for the same crimes.
    Completely unsupported in scripture. I don't know where you get these jackanory ideas from.
  13. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    21 Jul '15 16:33
    Originally posted by sonship
    [b] Sounds kinda Buddhist - except for the god bit.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    That observation and a buck seventy will get you a coffee at Seven-Eleven.

    Astronomy "sounds like" - "Twinkle, twinkle little star."
    Edwin Hubble and Mother Goose must be the same.


    I could never go for any concep ...[text shortened]... -----------------------------------------------------------------

    Blow Down #1 !
    Next ?
    The ones in heaven will all share in the same self-realization, other attributes are negligable .

    Well, you pointing out the apparent suffering in your other post made me think how similarly the Buddha viewed the world. I don't mean to make any other point here. I am not implying anything more than the similarity.

    "Do yo have a final moral justice of any kind?"
    Yes, but I would have trouble putting into words right now. I guess it comes down to correct observation. If life is correctly observed , then all people theoretically would see moral and immoral at a glance, without putting their spin on it.

    "moral scales being put into balance" ? Again, correct observation will lead to one balancing these scales.... in their own life, you cant control anyone else.

    Blow down? You mean like physically?

    Hells no! I actually appreciate your post. It's made me think
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    21 Jul '15 17:05
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]Biblical support of the fundamental doctrine

    "The doctrine of eternal conscious punishment asserts that after physical death on earth, the soul of the unsaved person immediately enters a state and place of continual conscious torment. The condemned state will culminate in bodily resurrection, final judgment, and then unending torment in the “l ...[text shortened]... tion 1 of 9)

    http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution[/b]
    The concept of Hell and the Lake of Fire and Brimstone seem to me to be basically the same. If so, then I would say that scripture teaches that Hell is a place of eternal punishment and the torment lasts forever.
  15. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jul '15 17:58
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Completely unsupported in scripture. I don't know where you get these jackanory ideas from.
    I would be interested as well in some supporting references
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