"Is Hell Forever?"

Originally posted by sonship
Volumes, volumes huh? Wow.

Well I'll tell you, some people who wax humble and say things like " I am not Bible scholar " or " I am not an authority " sometimes actually seem to be saying " I know EVERYTHING! "

You're the one who made the comment, are you going to deny that you meant it as a barb?

Originally posted by divegeester
Ok I've had a look at the context and you argument is very weak sonship. Any reader can easily see that Paul's warning to Jude, who is already a disciple (and therefore not seeking Christ through fear or any other motivation), is to fear the sin of those whom he is trying to convert. To be honest I'm a little surprised that you can't see this for yourself.

Ok I've had a look at the context and you argument is very weak sonship. Any reader can easily see that Paul's warning to Jude,
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This is Jude writing. This is not Paul's warning to Jude.


who is already a disciple (and therefore not seeking Christ through fear or any other motivation), is to fear the sin of those whom he is trying to convert. To be honest I'm a little surprised that you can't see this for yourself.
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I think the context ALSO is that there were some people hanging around with the Christians of whom the Christians were not SURE were real brothers or not.

For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who of old have been written of beforehand for this judgment, ungodly men, perverting the grace of our God into licentiousness and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (v.4)

The context include men who were difficult to pin point exactly where they stood in relation to Jesus Christ. They may have had a way of saying all the right things. But they became a problem to the churching people.

So a strong gospel had to be preached to them. For they did not know where they where.

"These are those who make divisions, soulish, having no spirit." (v.19)

It could mean that they had no practical living from their regenerated human spirit. Or it could mean that they were not regenerated.

In some cases only God knows for sure. But they were mixed in with the genuine believers and caused much confusion. I think this is the backround of Jude's exhortation. And how can we say fear played no part ?

But if the passage is ambiguous as to whether this is a primitive Gospel preaching one, I would say that the Lord Jesus still included warnings to believe into Him rather than face a fearful judgment.

Among other incentives, the fear incentive is included.

Originally posted by divegeester
You're the one who made the comment, are you going to deny that you meant it as a barb?

You can take it any way you think you need to take it.

Back to substance. The fear of the Lord is clean. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

And some of the gospel preaching of the Son of God included among its incentives the fear of the Lord.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Ok I've had a look at the context and you argument is very weak sonship. Any reader can easily see that Paul's warning to Jude,
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This is Jude writing. This is not Paul's warning to Jude.


who is already a disciple (and therefore not seeking Chris ...[text shortened]... rather than face a fearful judgment.

Among other incentives, the fear incentive is included.

All this reaching and you speculatively "thinking" something may imply something. In order to prove what exactly...? That what is clearly written in scripture "the law is the school-master that leads us to Christ" may not sum it up and fear may also bring us to Christ. It's unequivocal and I challenge to find differently. Unequivocally. You believe something different and will look at anything in order to uphold it.

Originally posted by divegeester
All this reaching and you speculatively "thinking" something may imply something. In order to prove what exactly...? That what is clearly written in scripture "the law is the school-master that leads us to Christ" may not sum it up and fear may also bring us to Christ. It's unequivocal and I challenge to find differently. Unequivocally. You believe something different and will look at anything in order to uphold it.

All this reaching and you speculatively "thinking" something may imply something. In order to prove what exactly...? That what is clearly written in scripture "the law is the school-master that leads us to Christ" may not sum it up and fear may also bring us to Christ. It's unequivocal and I challenge to find differently. Unequivocally. You believe something different and will look at anything in order to uphold it.
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I think you loss me.
I got it. Why don't we say that you won that argument ?

Remember this one. It may come in handy latter.

Seriously, I thought we were talking about ... is "fear" in any way ever taught in connection to coming to God for salvation.
I think you are saying, it either is not or is not a good incentive.

If that is what you mean, I don't see that it absolutely is not ever, OR that it is not a legitimate incentive to ask Jesus to come into one's heart.

How we come to Jesus is not as important, I think, as the fact that we COME to Jesus.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] All this reaching and you speculatively "thinking" something may imply something. In order to prove what exactly...? That what is clearly written in scripture "the law is the school-master that leads us to Christ" may not sum it up and fear may also bring us to Christ. It's unequivocal and I challenge to find differently. Unequivocally. You believe somet ...[text shortened]... eart.

How we come to Jesus is not as important, I think, as the fact that we COME to Jesus.

You are not being particularly coherent, but to your last point, it is important because Christ is the fulfillment of the law, and it is the law who brings us to Christ. It is perfect, and does not require fear in its equation.

Originally posted by divegeester
You are not being particularly coherent, but to your last point, it is important because Christ is the fulfillment of the law, and it is the law who brings us to Christ. It is perfect, and does not require fear in its equation.

Do you agree with the proverb that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom ? ( Psalm 111:10 )

"The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of wisdom; All who practice His precepts have a good understanding ..."

Here again:

Proverbs 9:10 King James Version (KJV)

10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Since we were born into a fallen world where sinning abounds, the fear of the Righteous Lord is a legitimate reaction to hearing of His word and His law. Don't you think so ?

Did you notice how God said He would make note of those who trembled at His word ?

Isiah 66:4

New American Standard Bible
"For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD. "But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word."

"Then those who feared Jehovah spoke to one another, each with his neighbor.

And Jehovah gave heed and listened, and a book of remembrance was written before Him of those who feared Jehovah and considered His name." (Malachi 3:16)

The word fear is used of God, not that we are to be afraid of him, else no one would approach him. It means reverence, awe.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The word fear is used of God, not that we are to be afraid of him, else no one would approach him. It means reverence, awe.

To " tremble at His word " is not a healthy godly fear ?

"For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD. "But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word."

Originally posted by sonship
To [b]" tremble at His word " is not a healthy godly fear ?

"For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD. "But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word."

[/b]

Are you saying we are to be afraid of God? Do you mean like a father that beats his children?

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Is there anyone who creates a post asserting in sum that "Hell is Forever" who is not posting it as a fear tactic?
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Some observations.

1.) Jesus talked about a lot of things, many, many things.

2.) Jesus also talked about WHOM men should fear and wh ...[text shortened]... or He was insane. I don't think Jesus was insane. I'm betting He was most sober minded.[/b]

Well if Jesus endorses the use of such fear tactics on immature minds, I'll take the gamble if it results in not spending much time with Him.

Originally posted by JS357
Well if Jesus endorses the use of such fear tactics on immature minds, I'll take the gamble if it results in not spending much time with Him.

Heh heh.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 3)
"Answering annihilationism’s arguments"

"Professing evangelical theologians who contend for annihilationism use arguments that are not biblically sound.

1) God in His love would never be cruel and vindictive, so He would never punish His enemies endlessly. (Clark Pinnock, “The Conditional View,” Four Views on Hell, ed. William ...[text shortened]... (Section 3 of 9)
http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution

"Answering annihilationism’s arguments"

"Professing evangelical theologians who contend for annihilationism use arguments that are not biblically sound:

4) Eternal conscious torment is incompatible with sin that occurs in time, so eternal conscious torment violates the justice of God. Stott contends that there is a “serious disproportion between sins consciously committed in time and torment consciously experienced throughout eternity.” (Judgement and Hell, pp. 318-319.)

Response. Annihilationist concepts of God’s justice and the gravity of sin are not biblical but rather based on assumptions of human reason. Peterson observes that throughout the Bible there are divine judgments that, from a human perspective, seem out of proportion to the offenses: Lot’s wife turned into a pillar of salt for only a glance (Gen 19:26); Nadab and Abihu killed only for improper worship (Num 3:4); a man stoned for gathering sticks on the Sabbath (Num 15:32-36); Uzzah killed for trying to keep the ark of God from falling (2 Sam 6:6-7); Ananias and Sapphira killed for lying (Acts 5:1-10); etc. And then there was the punishment— physical and spiritual death and eternal condemnation—that God brought on the whole human race for one man’s sin. But each of these contexts reveals the reason for such harsh punishment: the offenses were committed against God.

So for each sin, because it is against God, man deserves eternal punishment. Peterson notes, “The Bible views sin as an attack on God’s character and therefore deserving of great punishment.” (“A Traditionalist Response to John Stott’s Arguments for Annihilationism,” Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, 37, December 1994, 561-64) So we must base our concept of God’s justice and just punishment of man not on human standards of justice, but on God’s character as revealed in the Bible. Since God is eternally holy, any sin deserves an eternal punishment, not a punishment restricted to a period of time. As Aquinas said, “the magnitude of the punishment matches the magnitude of the sin…. Now a sin that is against God is infinite; the higher the person against whom it is committed, the graver the sin … and God is of infinite greatness. Therefore an infinite punishment is deserved for a sin committed against him.” (Summa Theologiae, Ia2ae.87,4, quoted by Peterson, 563.)" (Section 4 of 9)
http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]"Answering annihilationism’s arguments"

"Professing evangelical theologians who contend for annihilationism use arguments that are not biblically sound:

4) Eternal conscious torment is incompatible with sin that occurs in time, so eternal conscious torment violates the justice of God. Stott contends that there is a “serious dispropo ...[text shortened]... ction 4 of 9)
http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution[/b]

Posting someone else's opinion on eternal suffering does make your postion on it any stronger.

Originally posted by JS357
Well if Jesus endorses the use of such fear tactics on immature minds, I'll take the gamble if it results in not spending much time with Him.

So if we called it a warning of pending doom instead of a fear tactic would it be okay?