Originally posted by @secondsonI choose blind over dumb anyday
That explains it. You're blind.
Originally posted by @fmfNo, I don't know any steadfastly EX-Christians who have given up on Christianity. Most fallen Christians I've talked with seem initially regretful that they no longer feel "part of the flock", but when I try to encourage them back, they are full of excuses, which tells me they have "given up" and would rather remain detached from any spiritual matters. In no case has any of these "wayward sons" given the name of a book in the Bible as the reason they no longer follow Christ.
What books of the Bible were the ones that the ex-Christians you've known cited as having been problematical or corrosive to their faith?
Originally posted by @secondsonThis is the strangest trash talking I've seen. 😛
I'd rather be dumb like a sheep than blind like a Pharisee.
Originally posted by @bigdoggproblemDon't know much about sheep do you. Or Pharisees apparently.
This is the strangest trash talking I've seen. 😛
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Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeMany believe Job served as an example to Jews that persecution and punishment were not always the result of sin - that the righteous suffer as well as the heathen.
There is also the question as to why such an omnipotent deity needs to prove anything to the devil in the first place, especially at the expense of a pious man.
Such a lesson paved the way for Jews to accept Jesus Christ’s persecution and punishment didn’t mean He was sinful.
The book of Job has important lessons and is not just God proving something to Satan at the expense of a pious man. There’s more - a lot more - going on than that.
The book also serves to illustrate that God owes man nothing - no explanations and no reasons for doing what He does. Once Job realizes that, God restores Him.
There’s a lot going on in that book and it’s a great book to read and re-read.
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From gotquestions.org
Question: "How do we decide which books belong in the Bible since the Bible does not say which books belong in the Bible?"
Answer: If Scripture is to be our sole authority, on what authority do we know which books belong in the Bible - since the Bible does not state which books should be in the Bible? This is a very important question, because a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. In the chain of communication from God to humanity, is there a weak link? If so, then the whole chain fails, and the communication ultimately cannot be trusted.
Consider the various "links" comprising God's communication to us: first came God's desire to communicate. This was rooted in His love, for the most loving thing a good God can do is reveal Himself to His creation. Next came the actual transmission of God's Word through human writers. This involved a process the Bible calls "inspiration," in which God breathed the words that the human agents recorded (2 Timothy 3:16). After that came dissemination, as the Word was delivered to its audience through preaching or other means. Then came recognition, as God's people distinguished Holy Scripture from other religious writings. And then, preservation, through which God's Word has survived to the present day, despite many attempts to destroy it. And finally, illumination, as the Holy Spirit opens the believer's understanding to receive the Word.
And that's the "chain"--the demonstration of God's love in the inspiration, dissemination, recognition, preservation, and illumination of His Word. We believe that God was involved in each step of the process, for why would God go to such lengths to inspire His Word and then not preserve it? Why would He speak to us and then fail to guide us in recognizing His speech?
This recognition of God's Word is usually called "canonization." We are careful to say that God determined the canon, and the church discovered the canon. The canon of Scripture was not created by the church; rather, the church discovered or recognized it. In other words, God's Word was inspired and authoritative from its inception--it "stands firm in the heavens" (Psalm 119:89)--and the church simply recognized that fact and accepted it.
The criteria the church used for recognizing and collecting the Word of God are as follows:
1) Was the book written by a prophet of God?
2) Was the writer authenticated by miracles to confirm his message?
3) Does the book tell the truth about God, with no falsehood or contradiction?
4) Does the book evince a divine capacity to transform lives?
5) Was the book accepted as God's Word by the people to whom it was first delivered?
Of these criteria, the one of most importance was the first one--was the book written by a prophet? Its corollary, "Did the book receive apostolic approval?", was the chief test of canonicity in the early church. This criterion is a logical result of knowing what an "apostle" was. The apostles were gifted by God to be the founders and leaders of the church, so it is reasonable to accept that through them came the Word governing the church.
The apostles were promised the Spirit of truth who would bring to their remembrance what Christ had said (John 14:26) and guide them into "all truth" (John 16:13). After the ascension of Christ, the apostles received supernatural gifts to enable their work and confirm their message (Acts 2:4). God's household is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets" (Ephesians 2:20). Given the apostles' special commission, it only makes sense that the church made apostolicity the number-one test of canonicity. Thus, the Gospel of Matthew was considered canonical (it was written by an apostle); and the Gospel of Mark, with its close association with the Apostle Peter, was also accepted.
When the New Testament was being written, the individual books and letters were immediately accepted as God's Word and circulated for the benefits of others. The church of Thessalonica received Paul's word as the Word of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13). Paul's epistles were circulating among the churches even during apostolic times (Colossians 4:16). Peter recognized Paul's writings as inspired by God and equated them with "the rest of the Scriptures" (2 Peter 3:15-16). Paul quoted the Gospel of Luke and called it "Scripture" (1 Timothy 5:18). This widespread acceptance stands in stark contrast to the few debated books, eventually rejected as non-canonical, that enjoyed a limited favor for a time.
Later, as heresy increased and some within the church began clamoring for the acceptance of spurious religious writings, the church wisely held a council to officially confirm their acceptance of the 27 New Testament books. The criteria they used allowed them to objectively distinguish what God had given them from that of human origin. They concluded that they would stay with the books that were universally accepted. In so doing, they determined to continue in "the apostles' teaching" (Acts 2:42).
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Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeThe book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is the most difficult for me.
To Christians and non-Christians alike. Which book of the Bible is the least convincing?
Yes, I know for Christians it is all the word of God, but I am curious if there are particular books of the Bible that you personally struggle with?
I will share my own particular struggles shortly.
Originally posted by @divegeesterWhere do people get told it's by "Jesus Christ"?
The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is the most difficult for me.
And that's a rhetorical question, obviously.
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Originally posted by @suzianneDid they give reasons?
No, I don't know any steadfastly EX-Christians who have given up on Christianity. Most fallen Christians I've talked with seem initially regretful that they no longer feel "part of the flock", but when I try to encourage them back, they are full of excuses, which tells me they have "given up" and would rather remain detached from any spiritual matt ...[text shortened]... "wayward sons" given the name of a book in the Bible as the reason they no longer follow Christ.
Were their reasons all the same?
If one person had a different reason from another dad you challenge them on not being geneuine in their loss of faith?
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Originally posted by @fmfIt’s the full name of the book which people don’t quote.
Where do people get told it's by "Jesus Christ"?
And that's a rhetorical question, obviously.
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ”
Writen by John.
Edit, actually I might be wrong about that, I’ll have to look it up.
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Originally posted by @divegeesterJesus Christ said lack of understanding; trouble and persecution; and cares of the world are reasons The Word doesn’t take root in their hearts.
Did they give reasons?
Were their reasons all the same?
If one person had a different reason from another dad you challenge them on not being geneuine in their loss of faith?
“The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
(Matthew 13:1-23)
Originally posted by @secondsonA slightly 'safe' answer' if you don't mind me saying. No part of any book in the Bible that causes you to exclaim "what the heck?"
For the record, I'm fully convinced of and by all 66 books of the Bible.
Originally posted by @divegeesterYes, but my point can be illustrated by the fact that, more than once, I've met people - often on the tube in London, as it happens, and once in the cafeteria of a museum in a Japanese city - who told me that Jesus had spoken to them in a vision. Must be having trouble getting their stories published because I've not seen Corporate Christianity embrace them yet.
It’s the full name of the book which people don’t quote.
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ”
Writen by John.
Edit, actually I might be wrong about that, I’ll have to look it up.