Is Salvation a free gift?

Originally posted by Badwater
Umm - why do I need to raise someone from the dead? Why did I need to believe that some guy named Jesus of Nazareth (if he existed) resurrected?

Your position is borne of gross ignorance. As you don't know, the Gnostics didn't believe so much in the literal resurrection of Jesus, they saw it more as a metaphor. They were early Christians, too.

Because ...[text shortened]... eligion. But - I don't necessarily agree with his premise. By understanding, however, I gain.

Originally posted by WWindmill
O.K. So we dont believe in the flood, we dont believe in the resurection of Jesus. What exactly do you believe in and where do you draw your lines between what is lies and the truth? Of course I have gross ignorance towards the Bible and why not when basically it is one big lie?

Originally posted by Conrau K
Do you believe that metaphors are lies?

So tell us then what that metaphor is meant to be from the Bible? Jesus never really walked the earth?

Originally posted by WWindmill
That is a pretty big metaphor isnt it. A man who predicts his own death and the cirumstances surrounding it, gets betrayed, beaten and whipped and then hung out on the cross only to raise himself back from the dead to save mankind.

Originally posted by Conrau K
The gnostics (that Badwater refers to) only regaded the resurrection as a metaphor. Perhaps the rest of the gospel narrative was not metaphorical.

If that is the case, is the metaphor a lie?

O.K. So no flood, no resurrection of Jesus and now no life of Jesus. What is left!? An empty book which is one big LIEEEEE!!!

Im glad I tore my one up into a million pieces and sent it to the dump where it belongs. At least it will have some REAL purpose as manure.

Originally posted by WWindmill
Im lost. If it is a metaphor then the life of Jesus is invalid.

Originally posted by Conrau K
So because the gnostics interpret the gospel account of the resurrection as a metaphor, then the life of Jesus must be "invalid" (whatever that means)?

Could it be the case that Jesus died, as the Passion narratives record, and was "resurrected" in a metaphorical sense which the gnostics believe?

So if you believe it is a metaphor then what of the people who saw him after he returned from the dead? They didnt really see HIM? Is that all a metaphor aswell?

O.K. So the flood never happened, Jesus didnt really rise from the dead and people never saw him after the fact and his entire life is a lie. Whats left then? Nothing but manure for the garden.

I could respond to your queries, but it would not answer your questions. You are not understanding what is said. You are as the blind asking me what the color 'red' is. Besides, I can't answer your questions, only you can. That is at the essense of the spiritual self and spiritual truth.

Originally posted by Badwater
I could respond to your queries, but it would not answer your questions. You are not understanding what is said. You are as the blind asking me what the color 'red' is. Besides, I can't answer your questions, only you can. That is at the essense of the spiritual self and spiritual truth.

Originally posted by Conrau K
So because the gnostics interpret the gospel account of the resurrection as a metaphor, then the life of Jesus must be "invalid" (whatever that means)?

Could it be the case that Jesus died, as the Passion narratives record, and was "resurrected" in a metaphorical sense which the gnostics believe?