Is Salvation a free gift?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I like this thought. It chimes with the concept of tikkun.

Tikkun , sounds interesting....what is it?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Tikkun , sounds interesting....what is it?

I have a rather personal concept of the word -- basically, the notion that God (assuming it exists) requires the efforts of creatures to perfect, or at least ameliorate, creation. But here is the wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikkun_olam

Originally posted by muppyman
May I say you remind me of a verse from Ezekiel; "I sat not among the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced, I sat alone because of thy hand, for thou hast filled me with indignation, O Lord God of hosts"

That verse is not in Ezekiel, it is in Jeremiah.

Jer 15:17 I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I could never believe in a God who would condemn a righteous atheist. Then again, I don't believe in any God with the agency -- to condemn. It's counter-intuitive.

Reading your last post -- don't be afraid of the world outside and don't try to conquer it.

I am not afraid of the world, and I am not trying to conquer it. That is what Christ does, not me.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Truly, everybody is a 'child of God' (atheists substitute another metaphor).

Is everybody a 'child of God'?

Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Deu 7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God?
whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Originally posted by knightmeister
His omnipotence IS on shaky ground when it comes to our free choices. He has chosen it to be that way. He will make it almost impossible for you to choose against him by trying everything he can to persuade , seduce your heart and come into your life , but in the final reckoning he will not break down the very essence of you as a free sentient being to ...[text shortened]... o respect for human choices and did not respect your will. What kind of father would that be?

What kind of father would he be if he left his children to their own will and go to hell?

Originally posted by Badwater
That has to be the most bizarre declaration I've heard in quite some time. Just exactly where in the ministry or sermons of Jesus did you come up with that notion?

"Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God." (Ezekiel 36:22-28)


Jon 2:9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

Psa 37:39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Originally posted by pritybetta
That verse is not in Ezekiel, it is in Jeremiah.

Jer 15:17 I sat not in the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced; I sat alone because of thy hand: for thou hast filled me with indignation.

Thanks for the correction, the text just happened to cross my bow once many many decades ago, so was not deeply etched upon the fleshy tablets of my heart. Proves that I don't know one OT book from another. 🙂

Originally posted by knightmeister
God doesn't condemn anybody who has not condemned themselves first. If you want to "exercise" your free will to choose against him he has given you that right. He will of course be heart broken and distraught and will walk through death and suffering to reach your heart but to turn you into a robot would be to take your soul from you and virtually kill ...[text shortened]... robots to protect them from rebelling against me at the very least it would be a last resort.

Nobody should want children to be robots, but robot is your word, not mine. What about the sensibility of Solomon's advice, "Train up a child in the way that he should go, and when he is old he will not depart therefrom" ?

Originally posted by pritybetta

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

This is the only attempt you try to make to come up with words or ministry of Jesus. Sadly, this verse is taken completely out of context; this verse is from a long conversational narrative that Jesus has with his disciples. In context, he has just talked quite gloomily about his death and washed the disciples' feet, then foretold his betrayal and that Peter would deny him. After all this talk we can be sure they are quite stunned and are probably wondering what in the world Jesus is doing with a bunch of denying, backstabbing losers. Jesus is reassuring them in Chapter 15 that he still stands by them, that his choosing of them was not a mistake on his part. He chose them to be disciples, in spite of the betrayal and denials. And in spite of the chaos that is to come, Jesus will have chosen wisely. The disciples feel like garbage after all this talk but that is not the case, for they will survive the chaos and the death of Jesus "and bring forth fruit, and your fruit should remain..."

This is what happens when fractured scriptures are used to support one's notions, instead of learning whatever can be learned from the entire context of the story. Gleaning meaning from an entire passage (story, narrative) in the manner that it was intended for the reader, in the historical context that the reader may have understood it, is called exegesis.

Now when I get up tomorrow, I'm going to deliver to you a story from John concerning Jesus that specifically deals with salvation. I'll let Jesus do the talking and he can demonstrate how it is that salvation is freely given - and freely taken. And you can take him at his word - or not.

Originally posted by pritybetta
What kind of father would he be if he left his children to their own will and go to hell?

A bad father. A bad father would just leave us to our own devises and see what happened. A good father would give his children severe warnings about hell and try his upmost to communicate what the correct path actually was. He would give us severe warnings about sin and it's destructiveness. He would probably try and come down to earth to save us and persuade us to follow him to paradise. He might even lose his own life and go through death and suffering to this end. Even after that he would try and get those who are following him to try and save those who aren't.

Any of this sound familiar?

Originally posted by muppyman
Nobody should want children to be robots, but robot is your word, not mine. What about the sensibility of Solomon's advice, "Train up a child in the way that he should go, and when he is old he will not depart therefrom" ?

But even a trained child still has choices to make and unless those choices are his own then he is just a brainwashed stooge.

Originally posted by knightmeister
But even a trained child still has choices to make and unless those choices are his own then he is just a brainwashed stooge.

But why would such a good father create Hell in the first place?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What do you believe is the minimum requirement for one to be saved?

A really good imagination.

Originally posted by muppyman
But why would such a good father create Hell in the first place?

Not all Christans beleive in Hell as a place, some beleive it to be the absence of God.