Isaiah 9:6, For the JW

Originally posted by RJHinds
Let me put it this way. The orthodox Christian churches have declared the Jehovah's Witnesses a heretical cult after the order of the Arians of old.

http://www.faithfacts.org/world-religions-and-theology/cults-and-heresies

The Instructor

Could you explain this verse for us?
1 Cor 15:24-28
Then comes the end, when He (Jesus) delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He (Jesus) must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He (Jesus) says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He (God) who put all things under Him (Jesus) is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him God) who put all things under Him (Jesus), that God may be all in all.
NKJV

Originally posted by RJHinds
Let me put it this way. The orthodox Christian churches have declared the Jehovah's Witnesses a heretical cult after the order of the Arians of old.

http://www.faithfacts.org/world-religions-and-theology/cults-and-heresies

The Instructor

I am after understanding and why, not what some religious body has stated.

Originally posted by vistesd
You didn't already know Robbie's (and Gal's) position on Jesus and the Father? It seems that clearly, you were attempting to entrap them with that verse--as if they'd never considered it before.

However, as I say--no fault on your part. Perhaps you haven't been here long enough. I've just been at this too long . . . Lay the fault on me.

Galvaston made an answer. Robbie never did after repeated attempts to get an straight answer... he danced around my question. I don'tt see what the big deal is. Is it unreasonable to ask a question when there seems to be a conflict with what someone says vs. what someone adheres to for their guideance? My goodness are we not big boys here? Is there consistency or isn't there, just asking is all and wanted some thoughts. After all is this not what debate is about? I get it, no biggie, no fault to lay... Thanks for you honesty and the reply, BTW I have been posting only since the fall, not very long.

Originally posted by kd2acz
Galvaston made an answer. Robbie never did after repeated attempts to get an straight answer... he danced around my question. I don'tt see what the big deal is. Is it unreasonable to ask a question when there seems to be a conflict with what someone says vs. what someone adheres to for their guideance? My goodness are we not big boys here? Is there consis ...[text shortened]... ks for you honesty and the reply, BTW I have been posting only since the fall, not very long.

As you wish, but I warn you that these two JWs on here will simply play ring-around-the-rosie with you and then suddenly get amnesia and you will be back at square 1.

The Instructor

Originally posted by kd2acz
Well Visted. thank you for your comments on Robbie's behalf, I am sure you made him proud! My motivation here in asking questions is to seek clarity from someone who comes across as an 'authority' in light of inconsistencies that I see a) from JW on this forum. b) informational sources from the Internet and. different websites.

The verse I posted was fro ...[text shortened]... y questions are not personal but general in nature and in asking there seems to be an issue.

Nice comments for sure. If I've reacted to you in a way that was not good I apologize.
We, Robbie and myself have gone over these points many times and do get a little low on the patience scale from time to time and it is not the right thing to do.
I will be eager to help you out when ever you have a question...

Originally posted by RJHinds
As you wish, but I warn you that these two JWs on here will simply play ring-around-the-rosie with you and then suddenly get amnesia and you will be back at square 1.

The Instructor

To be clear I do not play games with my answers or play ring around the rosie.
In teaching someone about the Bible Jesus did not always give just a quick and to the point answer. He often asked questions to them, spoke with parables and examples and this was to get them to think and reason on their questions.
If I just said yes or no to a question which many here press us to, what does it accomplish? Yes they have an answer but with no explination, how could they learn "why" if the answer is just yes are no?
So you can view our answers or style of answering as a game. But I cleary tell you the Bible is no game and neither is an answer we give.
An answer could sway a person to agree or not to agree or learn or decide to ignor. So we have to be careful and with scriptures show why we answer as we do as that persons view of God could be affected.
Perhaps you should view that as important as we do with your answers instead of telling ones they are going to "burn in hell" or their head is up their a_ _ as you so often do? I would hope so.....

Originally posted by galveston75
Nice comments for sure. If I've reacted to you in a way that was not good I apologize.
We, Robbie and myself have gone over these points many times and do get a little low on the patience scale from time to time and it is not the right thing to do.
I will be eager to help you out when ever you have a question...

Galveston, you have reacted to me in no improper manner, thank you though. I understand the patience aspect, I do... we all experience this from time to time. I like to get my info as first hand as possible, thus my direct questioning. I appreciate the feedback.

Originally posted by kd2acz
So am I to understand you correctly. you agree with the verse that Jesus is equal to the Father? Jesus is all that is listed in verse 6?

(Philippians 2:5, 6) Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, (gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.)

It is stating here that Jesus "never" considered himself to be equal with God.

The expression he exist in God's form simply means he was a spirit just as God is before he came to earth and returned to heaven as a spirit.
Also the Bible say he was an "exact reflection" of his Father.
This is not saying he is his Father or it would have simply said that. It shows that Jesus was in absolute complete agreement with his Father on all levels. He never side stepped his Fathers will or commands. He was a free moral agent and could have altered anything he chose to do or even question his Fathers plans. But he never did and did exactly as his Father asked of him even to the death.
So Jesus was among other things a perfect ambassodor of his Father and displayed his complete agreement and also reflected his Fathers love, wisdom, etc.
But this fact never meant he was the same being as his Father as the trinity teaches. Jesus never said anything to even suggest that.

Originally posted by galveston75
(Philippians 2:5, 6) Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, (gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.)

It is stating here that Jesus "never" considered himself to be equal with God.

The expression he exist in God's form simply means he was a ...[text shortened]... eing as his Father as the trinity teaches. Jesus never said anything to even suggest that.

thankyou Gman, clearly plain English is not plain enough.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Could you explain this verse for us?
1 Cor 15:24-28
Then comes the end, when He (Jesus) delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He (Jesus) must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His subject to Him God) who put all things under Him (Jesus), that God may be all in all.
NKJV

This just means that the Son will return to His original position in the Godhead under the Father before sin. But at this point all authority has been given to the Son until death is destroyed so that we will be able to live forever in paradise.

The Instructor

Originally posted by galveston75
(Philippians 2:5, 6) Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, (gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.)

It is stating here that Jesus "never" considered himself to be equal with God.

The expression he exist in God's form simply means he was a spi ...[text shortened]... me being as his Father as the trinity teaches. Jesus never said anything to even suggest that.

With all due respect Galveston, me thinks you misinterpret this scripture verse. To make an honest and fair assessment of what the intent is here we need to expand a little to include additional verses to have a better handle on the context.

Paul is speaking about how we as Christian's ought to live and be. We are to imitate Jesus' example of humility and putting others before ourselves. Jesus as a man, even thou God... did not use his nature of being God, rather made himself nothing and taking the nature of a servant made in human likeness. When Jesus was on earth he was a man (flesh and blood), he felt pain, was humiliated in the worst way, scorned, spit upon, kicked, beaten, abused and betrayed! If that wasn't enough he was hung on a cross and crucified as a criminal and ridiculed by such, he was not a spirit, but he had a spirit just as you and I do. He was and is God.

The verse here is talking about Jesus as a man, not a spirit. Jesus on earth is man in God's image just as you and I are men in God's image. He took on being human and took it as far as you can go.

Imitating Christ’s Humility

Philippians 2:1-11
King James Version (KJV)

1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
2 Fulfill ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Philippians 2:1-11
New International Version (NIV)

1 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

The expression he exist in God's form simply means he was a spirit just as God is before he came to earth and returned to heaven as a spirit.

What it means is he was in God's image as you and I are.


Genesis 1:26-27
King James Version (KJV)

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Genesis 1:26-27
New International Version (NIV)

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

(Philippians 2:5, 6) Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, (gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.)

It is stating here that Jesus "never" considered himself to be equal with God.

I just don't see it, sorry. Jesus on earth is clothed in humanity not God, even though he is God.


I would be interested to hear what other Christian's interpretation of this verse is. Do you agree that 'Jesus "never" considered himself to be equal with God' or do you think this verse to mean something else such as I believe it of a variant thereof. Thanks

Originally posted by kd2acz
With all due respect Galveston, me thinks you misinterpret this scripture verse. To make an honest and fair assessment of what the intent is here we need to expand a little to include additional verses to have a better handle on the context.

Paul is speaking about how we as Christian's ought to live and be. We are to imitate Jesus' example of humility an s verse to mean something else such as I believe it of a variant thereof. Thanks

I think the New King James Version words it easier for a redneck American like myself to understand. As you see below, the idea was to tell the Christians of that Church how they should act. That is, to not be selfish, conceited, or think one is better than another, but be humble like the Son, who came in the likeness of man, even though he had been equal with the Father. However, now as a man, the Father in heaven was clearly greater than He. But because of this sacrifice, the Father would exalt Him above all.

Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(Phillpians 2:3-11 NKJV)

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
This just means that the Son will return to His original position in the Godhead under the Father before sin. But at this point all authority has been given to the Son until death is destroyed so that we will be able to live forever in paradise.

The Instructor

Godhead? Where is that term used in the Bible or should I say in most Bible's?
You will notice it is not in the majority of Bibles. Why is that?

Originally posted by kd2acz
With all due respect Galveston, me thinks you misinterpret this scripture verse. To make an honest and fair assessment of what the intent is here we need to expand a little to include additional verses to have a better handle on the context.

Paul is speaking about how we as Christian's ought to live and be. We are to imitate Jesus' example of humility an s verse to mean something else such as I believe it of a variant thereof. Thanks

Ok lets take this step by step.

As you say Jesus was in God's image just as we, humans, are in God's image.
So while Jesus was on earth he was a man just as you and I are ( or a woman if you are ) and not God or a spirit being at all?
Just a human being but a perfect one in fleshly form. Nothing more?

Originally posted by galveston75
Ok lets take this step by step.

As you say Jesus was in God's image just as we, humans, are in God's image.
So while Jesus was on earth he was a man just as you and I are ( or a woman if you are ) and not God or a spirit being at all?
Just a human being but a perfect one in fleshly form. Nothing more?

No I didn't say that. He had a spirit just like you and I, and he is God. He was born of the virgin, sinless, the only begotten son. In that regard he is unlike us, but like us in that he experienced flesh and all that goes with it.

Does that answer your question?