Islam the Whore of Babylon

Originally posted by stellspalfie
i found your explanation of what an anti-christ is very interesting. im bit disturbed by your response to how christians should interact with muslims. you always seem like one of the more tolerant and level headed christians on here, i wasnt expecting such a cold answer and maybe im reading too much into your choice of words but it felt like you were su ...[text shortened]... uld only interact with muslims to avoid wars not because they are on the whole very nice people.

found your explanation of what an anti-christ is very interesting. im bit disturbed by your response to how christians should interact with muslims. you always seem like one of the more tolerant and level headed christians on here, i wasnt expecting such a cold answer and maybe im reading too much into your choice of words but it felt like you were suggesting you would only interact with muslims to avoid wars not because they are on the whole very nice people.

My wiseguy response to you, reflected my view of some of the threads you start, which sometimes include some wisecrack in them.

Now in this discussion, I don't think I'll go all over the map. I am going to attempt to keep a FOCUS on the interpretation of Revelation to the glory of God. How do behave among Muslims is a perfectly valid subject. Others can talk about that.

I hope I can help Ron or maybe somebody out there, to see how to better deal with the symbolism of Babylon the Great in the book of Revelation.

Maybe as a by-product of that some insight into how Christians ought to conduct themselves in the world will come out. But I don't live in a "Moslem country". As an American 9/11 touched my life as well as other US citizens.

But as of yet there are others who can speak with more personal experience about living surrounded by Moslems.

Originally posted by jaywill
[quote] found your explanation of what an anti-christ is very interesting. im bit disturbed by your response to how christians should interact with muslims. you always seem like one of the more tolerant and level headed christians on here, i wasnt expecting such a cold answer and maybe im reading too much into your choice of words but it felt like you were are others who can speak with more personal experience about living surrounded by Moslems.

But as of yet there are others who can speak with more personal experience about living surrounded by Moslems

I preached from house to house in Pakistan, Bible in hand for over a year and a half to
both Christians and Moslems and i was treated with more hospitality and respect than
anywhere I have preached in the west, I am ashamed to say.

Originally posted by jaywill
[quote] found your explanation of what an anti-christ is very interesting. im bit disturbed by your response to how christians should interact with muslims. you always seem like one of the more tolerant and level headed christians on here, i wasnt expecting such a cold answer and maybe im reading too much into your choice of words but it felt like you were ...[text shortened]... are others who can speak with more personal experience about living surrounded by Moslems.

9/11 touched everybody, we all shared the pain and of coarse it will be felt stronger in the u.s. london has also had its fair share of terrorist attacks, several friends of mine were near the bus that exploded near russell square. but non of this has anything to do with muslims, in the same way that the i.r.a do not represent catholics. you are not at war with muslims, you are at war with al-qaeda who actually kill more muslims than they do christians.

the words you use 'behave among' and 'conduct themselves' and 'surrounded by muslims' all sound like you feel alien to them, they are just people, you wouldnt speak like that about the athiests on here, who you are comfortable to chat with and you have much more in common with a muslim than you do an atheist.

i grew up with several muslim friends and spent a lot of time with their families, one in particular and have always found them warm and hospitable, very generous and excellent cooks. i still argues with my muslim friends about their beliefs and not once has any of them tried to cut my head of or rape my girlfriend.

please keep the wise cracks coming, i find religion interesting but it does take itself a bit too serious sometimes.

Originally posted by RJHinds
http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3343:mystery-babylon-and-the-scarlet-whore&catid=209

At this time I only I browsed the website. But I speak to additional considerations about Babylon in Revelation.

Babylon in ch. 18 contains some of the people of God. This is proved by the words from God " ... Come out of her, My people" (Rev. 18:4) .

Though God's people can be located within her, she is ALSO responsible for the martyrdom of some of God's people, the saints.

"And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus, And I marveled with great marvel when I saw her." (17:6)

Now we have strange situation. We have to look for an intepretation of some entity which has two conflicting characteristics:

1.) The people of God have been carried away INTO this Babylon.

2.) Some of the saints of God have been murdered by this Babylon.

History has to be considered. Babylon represents some entity which has consisted of Christians AND also persecuted Christians.

"My [God's] people" are caught in her on one hand. And on the other hand some of God's saints have been murdered there. we have to look at more than just a physical location.

There is a third piece to this puzzle. Babylon has to be something that is judged by God in a most severe manner.

"And a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, Thus will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence and shall be found no more at all." (18:21)

Now we have an entity which has God's people in her, yet has caused the martyrdom of some of the Christians, AND will be thrown down with violence in God's judgment -

"Be glad over her, O heavn and saints and apostles and prophets, because God has judged judgment for you upon her." (18:20)

God judges this entity in the end severely and strongly. The saints now from heaven are seen rejoicing because of this judgment -

" ... I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of God. For true and righteous are His judgments; for He has judged the great harlot who courrupted the earth with her fornication, and He avenged the blood of His slaves at her hand. And a second time they said, Hallelujah! And her smoke goes up forever and ever." (See 19:1-4)

There is one more piece to the puzzle I'll add in this post.

Though it is so clear that Babylon in Revelation will be JUDGED severely by God, He does not do this judging dirrectly. He carries out this judgment via using Antichrist and his government. God judges the Mother if Harlots somewhat by "remote control". God, in His sovereignty, puts it into the hearts of Antichrist and his co-rulers to hate and attack Babylon.

It is this indirect judgment of God via God's enemies which furnishes the destruction of this entity. Previously the relationship between the world governments and the Mother of Harlots was more cooperative. But in the last of days this tolerant and cooperative relationship will turn veru negative. And God, through the new revulsion of Antichrist and his kings carry out a destruction of Babylon which is under the providence of God.

"And the ten horns which you saw and the beast [Antichrist], these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked and will eat her flesh and burn her utterly with fire.

For God HAS PUT IT INTO THEIR HEARTS to perform His mind and to perform one mind and to give their kingdom to the beast until the words of God are accomplished." (17:16,17)

Considering these four aspects:

1.) Babylon has to represent something God's people have been carried away into and will be summoned to come OUT of.

2.) Babylon, though consisting of God's saints, has also been responsible for the martyrdom of some of God's servants.

3.) Babylon has to be an entity which God will severely judge, and that to the exuberant rejoicing of multitudes of God's people from heaven.

4.) Babylon has to be an entity whose previously cooperative relationship with world governements will turn sour at the end. And some final arrangement of world powers under Antichrist will suddenly decide this entity has to be destroyed down to the ground. This destruction is of God. But He does not do it directly. He carries it out indirectly through the hostility of the governments who previously were cooperative with her.

The Bible concludes with a marriage of Christ with His New Jerusalem, the bride and wife of the Redeemer. Whatever Babylon is should be an antithesis of that relationship. Instead of being MARRIED to Christ the Son of God, this Babylon is in a fornication relationship with others in constrast. But she wants to enjoy that status of a spousal relationship with Christ because the people of Christ by so many are held in her.

This should not point to Islam in any world history up to now. Islam, by no conceivable means, declares herself married to Christ. Christ is NOT the Redeemer, the Lamb of God's redemption. At best Christ is to Islam just another prophet superceeded by Muhammed "the last prophet".

I asked myself earlier "You wrote that Babylon claims to be the wife of Christ. Where is that in Revelation ?"

The proof that Revelation's Babylon pretends to be the wife of Christ is seen most directly in chapter 18 verse 7:

"Pay her back even as she has paid,
... I sit a queen, AND I AM NOT A WIDOW ..."

This entity has been very wicked in the past, even drunk with the blood of the servants of God whom she murdered. She boasts that she is "NOT A WIDOW". This means she boasts of having a husband when she is only the Mother of Harlots and herself a harlot.

The world considers the Christian church as a poor widow. As far as the unbelievers are concerned, the Church's leader and husband, Jesus Christ, is dead and gone. Now without Jesus Christ, the unbelieving world just considers the Christian church as some poor widow who no longer has her Lover and Husband.

Babylon, considers that her husband is not dead - " ... I AM NOT A WIDOW". She acknowledges at least that Christ is alive to whom she is married. Though God's people as His collective lover, as caught into her midst, she is a fornicator with the worldly rulers rather than faithfully married to the living Lord Jesus.

Islam may consider Jesus as a prophet taken to heaven. But Islam does not boast of being the wife of Jesus Christ. The very thought of it would be blasphemous to Moslems. So Islam is not a good interpretation of Babylon in the book of Revelation for this reason too.

Originally posted by jaywill
At this time I only I browsed the website. But I speak to additional considerations about Babylon in Revelation.

Babylon in ch. 18 contains some of the people of God. This is proved by the words from God [b]" ... Come out of her, My people" (Rev. 18:4) .

Though God's people can be located within her, she is ALSO responsible for the martyrdom of ...[text shortened]... Babylon in the book of Revelation for this reason too.[/b]

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
But as of yet there are others who can speak with more personal experience about living surrounded by Moslems

I preached from house to house in Pakistan, Bible in hand for over a year and a half to
both Christians and Moslems and i was treated with more hospitality and respect than
anywhere I have preached in the west, I am ashamed to say.

No wonder. You speak of a false Christ and of a false religion that agrees with
much of the false teachings of Islam.

Originally posted by RJHinds
No wonder. You speak of a false Christ and of a false religion that agrees with
much of the false teachings of Islam.

nope, it was simply because Muslims are more hospitable than you in your sad little
world would care to imagine. They are certainly more hospitable than many Baptists
that i have encountered in the west, way more. Indeed what teaching do I have in
common with Islam? It would surprise me if you knew anything about Islam. Heck it
would surprise me if you knew anything about anything.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
nope, it was simply because Muslims are more hospitable than you in your sad little
world would care to imagine. They are certainly more hospitable than many Baptists
that i have encountered in the west, way more. Indeed what teaching do I have in
common with Islam? It would surprise me if you knew anything about Islam. Heck it
would surprise me if you knew anything about anything.

You both teach Christ is not God come in the flesh. This is from the spirit of the
antiChrist. You also teach Christ did not raise himself bodily from the dead. In
a slightly different manner, of course.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You both teach Christ is not God come in the flesh. This is from the spirit of the
antiChrist. You also teach Christ did not raise himself bodily from the dead. In
a slightly different manner, of course.

the Bible does not say that God came in the flesh, you are lying , AGAIN. Here is
the verse,

(1 John 2:22) . . .Who is the liar if it is not the one that denies that Jesus is the
Christ? This is the antichrist, the one that denies the Father and the Son. . .

where does it state that the Christ is God , nowhere, do we deny that the Christ is
the messiah, nope, do we deny that Jesus is the Christ, nope, therefore you are
lying through your teeth, AGAIN.

We teach that Christ was raised from the dead, in accordance with scripture, pretty
difficult for someone that was dead to raise themselves from the dead, yah think.
Once AGAIN your stupid adherence to neoplatonic extra biblical pagan doctrine has
led you to lie.

The only thing we have in common with Islam is rejection of your pagan doctrine,
and Amen to that! Muslims are more spiritual, more hospitable and more inclined
to listen to what the Bible actually teaches than any bigoted baptist that I have ever
met, and believe me, i have met a few in my time.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the Bible does not say that God came in the flesh, you are lying , AGAIN. Here is
the verse,

(1 John 2:22) . . .Who is the liar if it is not the one that denies that Jesus is the
Christ? This is the antichrist, the one that denies the Father and the Son. . .

where does it state that the Christ is God , nowhere, do we deny that the Christ ...[text shortened]... es than any bigoted baptist that I have ever
met, and believe me, i have met a few in my time.

Maybe the first chapter of John is more clear. However, it doesn't matter if you
understand, you have the spirit of the antiChrist.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Maybe the first chapter of John is more clear. However, it doesn't matter if you
understand, you have the spirit of the antiChrist.

First chapter states that no one has seen the father at any time, pretty difficult for no
one to have seen Jesus, yah think, another dumber than a bag of spanners post!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
First chapter states that no one has seen the father at any time, pretty difficult for no
one to have seen Jesus, yah think, another dumber than a bag of spanners post!

This just proves that you have allowed Satan to blind your eyes from seeing the
truth when it is right in front of you.

Originally posted by RJHinds
This just proves that you have allowed Satan to blind your eyes from seeing the
truth when it is right in front of you.

Its not me that is claiming that Christ is the same as the father despite the Bible itself
stating that no one has seen the father at any time, is it, clearly your beliefs are not
founded upon scripture as this latest development demonstrates, but we knew that
from before, oh well, life goes on, ill be in paradise and you'll be gone for taking no
note.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Its not me that is claiming that Christ is the same as the father despite the Bible itself
stating that no one has seen the father at any time, is it, clearly your beliefs are not
founded upon scripture as this latest development demonstrates, but we knew that
from before, oh well, life goes on, ill be in paradise and you'll be gone for taking no
note.

You are too far gone. Stating lies, about what you know I have claimed about
God, is about as low as anyone can get.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Mohammed is an anti-Christ and a false prophet.
Islam is the whore of Babylon.
Mecca is known as the city of seven hills by the Arabs.
Islam is bastardized just like a whore is bastardized.

The strick Muslim's would just as soon cut your head off as look at you.

There’s a pall of fear over the civilized world. Cause? Islam. Islam has pronounced itse ed
swords representing Islam and the other part was arabic meaning "in the name of Allah".

Islam is the whore of Babylon.
Mecca is known as the city of seven hills by the Arabs.
Islam is bastardized just like a whore is bastardized.

...

Even some of the Muslims claim the Quran (Koran) is what is referred to In the Book of Revelation by the "666" as proof the Mohammed is a true prophet. A former Muslim said it was not Greek letters but was arabic. He said the X like symbol was crossed swords representing Islam and the other part was arabic meaning "in the name of Allah".

Your analysis is very poor.

You interpret that Mohammed is the 666 Beast of Revelation.
You also want to make Babylon Islam.

This is not a logical interpretation of Revelation. There is an emnity between the Beast and Babylon. The Beast ends up being the destroyer of Babylon. You can read it for yourself.

The TWO parties are enemies of one another and not on a friendly basis. You should know that the relationship of Muhammed to Islam is definitely not the advasarial relationship seen in Revelation between the Beast (666) and Babylon.

Here we see the Beast of 666 destroying Babylon the Mother of Harlots:

"And the ten horns which you saw AND THE BEAST, these will HATE the harlot and will make her desolate and naked and will eat her flesh and burn her utterly with fire." (Rev. 17:12)

This should not be Muhammed destroying Islam obviously. But it points to some future world leader 666 proclaiming himself as god destroying some form of degraded Christianity. And that probably along with any other monotheistic faith he can get his hands on.

Paul says that the coming man of lawlessness and son of perdition (Antichrist) will exalt himself above all that is called god or is an object of worship:

" ... the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or an object of worship, so that he sits in the temple of God, setting himself forth, [saying] that he is God." (2 Thess. 3b-4)

Muhammed did not and would not exalt himself as God. He was only Allah's last and final prophet and not himself an object of worship. And the thought of him persecuting Islam is so far absurd politically, theologically, and practically.

So why not drop your illogical interpretation of Muhammed being the Beast and Islam being Babylon ?