12 Aug 12
Originally posted by Suzianne
It's like that commercial for CenturyLink, offering a 19.95/month price that won't change for five years, and an audience member gets up and says "Nothing can change for five years?" They just don't seem to get it.
Seeing all the beating you're getting in the other thread about homosexuality and in this thread about the Trinity, my first thought is ...[text shortened]... lso makes the jackals focus on something besides your backside for a while. 😵[/b]
", but this is just pearls before swine,
I know this. I often have a hope that some seeking ones may be reading along.
This was my own personal experience. I use to go down to a Christian coffee house and listen to fools from the street argue with some of the brothers and sisters attempting to share the truth.
Maybe some of them received nothing. But as one standing by listening, my faith was nurtured. I was somewhat edified.
But you are right that we should be careful how we distribute our experiences of Christ - "pearls" and the truth of God's word - "holy things".
Thankyou for that fellowship.
12 Aug 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillInteresting; could I ask a few questions without meaning to sound police-like:
So I pray to the Father. I also pray to the Lord Jesus, the Son, like the Apostle Paul did.
Do you pray to these two people separately, or for different occasions or different needs?
Is there one person for one type of prayer and another for other type?
How do you divide your devotional time between the 2?
What about the holy spirit do you not pray to that person, or are they not equal within the triune construct?
Thank you.
12 Aug 12
Originally posted by divegeesterThey are ONE GOD.
Interesting; could I ask a few questions without meaning to sound police-like:
Do you pray to these two people separately, or for different occasions or different needs?
Is there one person for one type of prayer and another for other type?
How do you divide your devotional time between the 2?
What about the holy spirit do you not pray to that person, or are they not equal within the triune construct?
Thank you.
Come on, don't go all RJH on us now, we know you get the concept.
Not to speak for jaywill, but he prays to one God.
Originally posted by divegeesterThe Christian Triune God is three Persons (not three people) in One God.
Don't you think it's a fair question to ask someone who believes that thier god consists of 3 people, to ask who they pray to?
The word "people" is only used in referring to human beings. We are referring to the three personalities that are combined in the One Triune God, that is, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
P.S. Some use the word persona and personas, but that leads to the false belief in Modalism.
12 Aug 12
Originally posted by RJHindsSo all 3 in your eyes are "all equal, all knowing, all powerful" none above the other in anything?
The Christian Triune God is three Persons (not three people) in One God.
The word "people" is only used in referring to human beings. We are referring to the three personalities that are combined in the One Triune God, that is, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
P.S. Some use the word persona and personas, but that leads to the false belief in Modalism.
13 Aug 12
6 edits
Originally posted by divegeester
Interesting; could I ask a few questions without meaning to sound police-like:
Do you pray to these two people separately, or for different occasions or different needs?
Is there one person for one type of prayer and another for other type?
How do you divide your devotional time between the 2?
What about the holy spirit do you not pray to that person, or are they not equal within the triune construct?
Thank you.
Do you pray to these two people separately, or for different occasions or different needs?
Is there one person for one type of prayer and another for other type?
How do you divide your devotional time between the 2?
What about the holy spirit do you not pray to that person, or are they not equal within the triune construct?
Thank you.
I am not legal about how I pray. I am also not terribly systematic about my opening my heart to God in prayer.
I do not keep statistics or a log book so that after one year I can tally up how many times I addressed the Father and how many times I addressed the Son. Sometimes in one prayer I may refer to the Lord Jesus and the Father without the slightest sense of theological inconsistancy.
The passages I indicated - Ephesians 3:14,15 and 2 Cor. 12:8,9, I would think, should have been enough to prove that Paul had no qualms about praying to either the Father or the Lord Jesus.
I do not follow this example in a legal way. I only provided it to demonstrate a criticism about a Christian praying to either the Father or the Son is simply without serious basis.
I find it effective sometimes to pray to the Lord and speak to Him about His love and obedience to the Father. Just as easily I find it sometimes effective to address part of my prayer to the Father and speak of His great love for the Son.
I have no qualms about refering to BOTH of them as Father and Son. Whatever works is fine with me. I need all the help I can get sometimes. If I have to refer to Oh Father and Son as TWO - that is fine. For it was Jesus Who used the word "WE" in refering to Himself and the Father -
"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and WE will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
Therefore if in my praise and prayer I think of the Father and the Son as a collective, I have to complete biblical ground to feel that way. For Christ said He and His Father were the Divine "WE".
Often in our Lord's Table meetings, the first part of our meeting is devoted to prayers and praises of the Son. Our praises rise higher and higher proclaiming our love for the Son and all that He has accomplished and attained.
Then afterwards when our praises of the Son have reached a kind of climax, the last part of the table meeting will be directed to the Father. Usually our Lord's Table is in two sections then - adoration of the Son and then final praise of our Father.
Our scriptural ground for this is in the book of Hebrews when the Son is among the many brothers declaring the name of the Father to the many sons.
"For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers, Saying, 'I will declare Your name to My brothers; in the midst of the church I will sing hymns of praise to You." (Hebrews 2:11,12)
So you see, we praise the Son of God in the earlier part of our Lord's Table meeting. Then at a certain high pinnacle we will begin our songs and praises towards the Father. For His (the Son's) redemption has made us sons of God. And as one of us the Son declares the name of His Father in our midst. That is the Lord is both the Head of the body the church and also in the midst of the church as our Elder Brother.
Therefore it is so sweet that our Elder Brother, the Firstborn Son of God, leads us to all turn to His Father and our Father. We make this transition with no thought of any theological difficulty at all.
I will stop this post here. When we get to the Holy Spirit, I might want to devote a couple of posts just to Him.
The purpose of this post is mainly to show prayer to the Son, prayer to the Father, prayer to BOTH the Father and Son as the Divine "WE" are all quite good. It really depends on the amount of love one has or how much capacity of adoration of the Triune God a congregation wants to express.
13 Aug 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillI'm sorry Jaywill but I still can't get to the bottom of this. Earlier on you said you prayed to the Farther and to the Son but did not mention the Holy Spirit
[quote] Do you pray to these two people separately, or for different occasions or different needs?
Is there one person for one type of prayer and another for other type?
How do you divide your devotional time between the 2?
What about the holy spirit do you not pray to that person, or are they not equal within the triune construct?
Thank you. how much capacity of adoration of the Triune God a congregation wants to express.
I'm asking if you pray to them as separate persons at separate times for different occaisions or reasons? If so why? Do you pray to the Holy Spirit separately?If not why not?
I'm sure this is not a difficult question, despite Susianne's insistance that she know's the answer for you.
13 Aug 12
Originally posted by jaywillYou talk about te Son a lot; do you believe in the "eternal Son"?
So you see, we praise the Son of God in the earlier part of our Lord's Table meeting. Then at a certain high pinnacle we will begin our songs and praises towards the Father. For His (the Son's) redemption has made us sons of God.
13 Aug 12
12 edits
Originally posted by divegeester
I'm sorry Jaywill but I still can't get to the bottom of this. Earlier on you said you prayed to the Farther and to the Son but did not mention the Holy Spirit
[b]I'm asking if you pray to them as separate persons at separate times for different occaisions or reasons? If so why? Do you pray to the Holy Spirit separately?If not why not?
I'm sur ...[text shortened]... ot a difficult question, despite Susianne's insistance that she know's the answer for you.[/b]
I'm sorry Jaywill but I still can't get to the bottom of this. Earlier on you said you prayed to the Farther and to the Son but did not mention the Holy Spirit
What "bottom of this" do you hope to get to ? Maybe instead of attempting to lead me with questions, just state what is the point you would like to make. I don't know what "get to the bottom of this" means to you.
The saints may call in prayer to the Father - crying "Abba Father"
" And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father ! " (Gal. 4:6)
The saints also call out to the Lord Jesus in prayer -
'For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all and rich to all who call upon Him; For "whoever calls upon the name of he Lord shall be saved." ' (Romans 10:12,13)
So what is "get[ting] to the bottom of this" for you ? We call to the Father - "Abba Father" in prayer. We also call to the Lord Jesus in prayer for He is rich to all who call upon Him.
So what could you mean that you really need to get to the bottom of this ? Call upon the Triune God as much as your heart desires. The only limiting factor is the scope of your own personal affections. There is no prohibition in the New Testament to praying to Father or Son or Holy Spirit.
Now if for some reason YOU are limited by your own self imposed restraint or taboo, that is your invention. That is not any taboo imposed upon you from the New Testament.
I'm asking if you pray to them as separate persons at separate times for different occaisions or reasons? If so why? Do you pray to the Holy Spirit separately?If not why not?
I never said the Father was "separate" from the Son.
Nor did I ever say that the Son was "separate" from the Father.
They may be distinct. But they are not separate. And One lives in the Other. There is the "coinherance" of the three of the Trinity.
When I call to the Son of God I call to the Holy Spirit because "Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17) The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct. But they are not separated. For the Son lives in the Spirit and the Father and the Son come into the believer by the Spirit.
This is why in John 14 Jesus says that He and the Father as the divine "We" will come to make an abode with His lovers. Yet in the same chapter it is the coming of the Another Comforter, the Spirit of reality, which is coming to be in the disciples.
"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you." (John 14:16,17)
So in verses 16 and 17 it is the Spirit of reality, the Holy Spirit who will be in the disciples. But in verse 23 it is the Father and the Son as the divine "We" who is coming to make an abode with the lovers of Jesus.
So the Trinity, the Triune God is being dispensed into the Christians. And this is getting to the bottom of the revelation of such a marvelous mysterious truth.
I'm sure this is not a difficult question, despite Susianne's insistance that she know's the answer for you.
The Holy Spirit is the final stage of the Triune God reaching man in the most subjective way. I have shown you that the Spirit of reality of John 14:16,17 is the mean by which both the Father and the Son come to make an abode with the believers (John 14:23).
The Holy Spirit is the final stage in which God becomes life to the believers. And He is called "the Spirit of life" (Rom. 8:2)
"For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death."
Through the Third of the Triune God, the Holy Spirit, the Son becomes our inner subjective divine life. So He is "the Spirit of [zoe - divine] life" (Rom. 8:2). And He is the "life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) .
"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" . Through the life giving Spirit the more objective Father and Son finally reach man's innermost being to be our subjective life to live.
You know that Christ said that He was the life (John 11:25).
You know that Christ said that He came that we may have life and have it more abundantly (John 10:10).
You know that in Him was life (John 1:4).
You know that He is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6)
So the final stage of the Son coming to give life, be life to us, dispense life into us, and be our life is as the Holy Spirit - the "life giving Spirit" that the last Adam [Christ] became.
I don't know if you think pushing the matter of praying to the Holy Spirit is "getting to the bottom of this". But there is no good reason why a Christian could not address her prayer also to the Holy Spirit.
Perhaps we see less of this in the New Testament because the Holy Spirit is the consummate way in which the Trinity reaches man subjectively to be the Christ LIVED. "He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
The ultimate subjective reaching of man by God is as the Holy Spirit. So what is somewhat more objective to the believer - the Father and the Son, now reaching the believer most subjectively to be her life -
"For me to LIVE ... is Christ" (Philippians 1:21)
Having said this, I would add that there is no prohibition to addressing the Holy Spirit in prayer. If you have some sample then please show it to me. The Christian is only limited by his own affections.
If I want to address the Holy Spirit in petition, or praise, or prayer, or request show me the prohibition in the Bible demanding that I do not.
Through the Holy Spirit the Father and the Son finally reach man in the ultimate sense to be man's spiritual life. This is most subjective to us because our regenerated human spirit has become "one spirit" with the Holy Spirit Who is God and Who is Christ.