Jehovah's Witness a Masonic Offshoot ?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Is he Jaywills leader?

Let's just say sonship looks to the writings of Witness Lee for spiritual guidance in understanding the holy scriptures as you look to the writings of the Watchtower Society for your spiritual guidance.

Originally posted by twhitehead

IT is clear that Russel was familiar with the Masons. You have shown no real evidence whatsoever that he was a Mason or was strongly influenced by their beliefs. Certainly calling JWs 'an offshoot of Masonic Gnosticism' is going way overboard to the point of outright and obvious dishonesty.

Thread Title - Jehovah's Witnesses a Masoninc Offshoot ?

This could also be written - Jehovah's Witnesses a Masoninc Offshoot? YES or NO

If is fine with me someone writes, after examining the evidence available - "NO."

I'm still studying.

This thread lets the JWs have a little taste of their own medicine.
Exactly. That is the point of the thread and not an 'honest question' as you originally maintained.

That's right that it does give the pagan accusation hurling JWs a taste of their own medicine.

You clearly have no interest in the truth of the matter and it is nothing but a ridiculous smear campaign.

I do have an interest in the truth. And while looking for it, the JWs here get a taste of their own medicine.

Tip:

Didn't ask for one. But that the thread also has the purpose of letting certain JWs have a taste of their own medicine is done without apology. Certainly there is no apology to an atheist who I doubt has any desire to learn any "truth" that doesn't lead to his Atheism.

You're trying too hard to be the referee.

By the way. While you're all concerned about an honest thread started with no shady smear or innuendos, what was the purpose of your thread entitled -

"Message from God written in space" the OP saying "God gives us the middle finger" ?

Is that your pristine model of a thread started with no hint of "smear" intended? Not too impressive there.

Now lets talk about the founder of your own sect. Where is his grave? (and no, we are not talking about Jesus, I need a name of someone much more recent whose beliefs you have inherited).

The tomb of Jesus is somewhere in the vicinity of Jerusalem.
Since His resurrection, I have shared beliefs with many teachers.
Which one would you like to know where they are buried?

Dishonest smear campaigns tend to backfire.

My Thread Jehovah's Witness [sic] a [sic] Masonic Offshoot ? has not "backfired". So maybe it is not a smear campaign.

And maybe it comes across to some posters as provocative , perhaps, but not dishonest. I did write in it that I thought Russell deserved by me to be "Innocent until proven guilty" as to whether he was a Mason.

What seems to have "backfired" is one more attempt by you to appear to have some moral highground against Christian posters here.

Fair is fair.

Let's not disappoint anyone wanting to see old sonship and RJHinds go at it again about Witness Lee.

Witness Lee's Local Church Cult

"We Were Wrong" - an entire issue dedicated to correcting cult accusations against Witness Lee and the local churches who received his ministry.

http://www.equipresources.org/site/apps/ka/ec/product.asp?c=muI1LaMNJrE&b=2537845&en=fjJNLXMJIgKMKXOOLlLMJ5OUJqJXL0NFIjI3KaORJtJ9H&ProductID=762607

You have to do some work of downloading the PDF and reading.

For those wanting easier viewing -

Hank Hanagraff (the latest teacher to done the generic name Bible Answer Man talks about "A Brief Affirmation of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee"

YouTube

He and CRI (Christian Research Institute) corrects "the fountainhead of misinformation"
RJHinds, since you did confess just the other day that you did not know anything about the ministry of life, and so preferred to minister on what you know about (IE. Creation Evangelism), I would recommend that you pay particular attention to Hank when he speaks on Lee's balanced ministry including that ministry of life.

That is at around 3:08 . You said you knew nothing about that. So here's your opportunity to learn something.

Skipping down for now:

http://normangeisler.net/articles/theLocalChurch/2009-ResponseToCRIDefenseLocalChurch.htm

And some responsible teachers among the local churches respond point by point.

Fair is fair.

Indexed Responses to Walter Martin -

http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/index.html

Linked detailed responses to Norm Giesler and Ron Rhodes

http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/Geisler-Rhodes/index.html

Open up a new thread on this RJHinds if you wish.

Yes, I definitely learned much from Witness Lee.
But he never denied the Trinity.
But he never taught Jesus was Michael the angel.
But he never deviated from salvation by grace through faith.
But he never taught the Holy Spirit was not a Person of not God.

He did caution about holidays such as Christmas, Easter.
But I learned those things already. He just confirmed what I sensed was something to be aware of.

Originally posted by sonship
Fair is fair.

Let's not disappoint anyone wanting to see old sonship and RJHinds go at it again about Witness Lee.

[b] Witness Lee's Local Church Cult

"We Were Wrong" - an entire issue dedicated to correcting cult accusations against Witness Lee and the local churches who received his ministry.

http://www.equ ...[text shortened]... ut I learned those things already. He just confirmed what I sensed was something to be aware of.[/b]

ministry of life? as far as I am aware we are the only organisation that goes to people of all nations, as directed by the Christ, teaching from house to house and in the market places even as the apostles did. Witness Lee appears to me not to be so much a fisher of men, as an aquarium keeper.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie

ministry of life? as far as I am aware we are the only organisation that goes to people of all nations, as directed by the Christ, teaching from house to house and in the market places even as the apostles did. Witness Lee appears to me not to be so much a fisher of men, as an aquarium keeper.

Okay, Let's start here.

1.) It is pure arrogance for you to assume only JWs preach to all the nations on the earth. "We're the only pebbles on the beach" is some kind of self confident propaganda which is unrealistic.

I would never say that no one else preaches the Gospel to the nations except the local churches.

2.) The believers in the local churches have experienced door knocking. I do not do it regularly. I have gone door to door in college dorms and in apartments complexes and neighborhoods.

Furthermore, I have had Disciples of Christ come knocking on neighborhood doors. I would say Jehovah's Witnesses are the most active I know at door to door visitation.

3.) Paul did the work of an evangelist and ALSO built up the believers to live the church life. Witness Lee and his co-workers also did both.

At 80 years old he did less work of evangelism and more building up the saints in churches which you contemptuously and ignorantly refer to as "aquariums." Bringing people to Christ is also for the building up of practical assemblies.

You never read First Corinthians how the workers of the Lord were regarded as planters and waterers ? -

"What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Ministers through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave to each one of them.

I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth. So then neither is he who plants anything nor he who waters, but God who causes the growth.

Now he who plants, and he who waters are one, but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's cultivated land, God's building." (1 Cor. 3:5-9)

The co-workers labored in teamwork. Some "planted." Some watered the"plants." Most importantly, the growth of spiritual life was due to God - "God causes the growth".

The Bible describes the local churches each as God's farm and God's building. You call them "aquariums."

The local church in Corinth was called by Paul "God's cultivated land [ or FARM ]; God's building." This means as the congregation grows in spiritual life it is spontaneously being builded up as God's temple.

The growth of the saints in each locality is also the growing of habitation of God in spirit -

"Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone.

In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a hly temple in the Lord.

In whom you also (meaning the Ephesian Christians) are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:20-22)

It is crucial that divine life be received for salvation.
It is crucial that the same divine life be cultivated that the saints may grow.
It is crucial that through such growth the local assembly be built up.
And it is crucual that the local churches aggregately ("you also" meaning the local church) be built up into the corporate dwelling place of God in spirit - the "holy temple in the Lord".

So the work of the apostles you have just contemptuously referred to as being an "aquarium keeper."

Individual salvation is FOR the building up of the corporate temple of God. And that means both locally and universally:

"Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" (verse 16) .

The Gospel is preached that men and women may be saved. The Gospel is continued to be taught in all of its unsearchable riches that God may cause the growth and the building up of the saints into the practical local assembly.

So in the Lord's recovery were learn of "Life and Building".

"You are God's cultivated land [or farm], God's building" (1 Cor. 3:9b)

Let me give some attention to the thrust of this thread -

In my opinion the Jehovah's Witnesses are more the offshoot of one of the Adventist movements of the 19th century. Early liturature of Russell shows some fascination with the kinds of things some tell us are the secretive beliefs of the Freemasons.

I have never heard the JWs push this kind of thing. I don't think they do if it was in some of Russell's writings in its inceptions.

One notable exception might be with JW's teaching that Christ did not bodily rise. The Docetis portion of ancient Gnostic teaching disdained to think of Jesus as physical. He was too good to be material. He had to be a phantasm - taught these Docetist Gnostics.

After the resurrection the New Testament speaks of Christ as physical. It also says "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

Unless someone corrects me genuinely, the Jehovah's Witnesses only want to stress that Jesus rose a "spirit being". They don't want to believe His physical resurrection. And though they appeal to a verses saying Christ became life giving Spirit, which I also believe, they use the verse to fight against other verses which say He rose physically.

I reserve the right to believe the full scope of what the New Testament says about the risen Christ.

To me the refusal to acknowledge Christ's physical resurrection is like the ancient Docetist Gnosticism which insisted that Jesus was too good to have been material. I think that is a Gnostic influence.

Whether that could be said to be Masonic influence, I might not know. I need to study more about the Freemasons.

Witness Lee appears to me not to be so much a fisher of men, as an aquarium keeper.

There were three prominent apostles in the New Testament -

Peter, Paul and John are those three prominent workers.

Peter was called as a FISHER. and Jesus told him he would be a fisher of men. Paul, was a scholar. But in his day job he was a "TENT MAKER". John was a NET MENDER when he was called by Jesus. Or at least he was a fisherman who was occupied with mending broken fish nets and making them stronger.

I think the way each man was called was significant.

Peter was really a Gospel preacher and produced a lot of fish.
Paul was a Gospel preacher too, no doubt. However Paul prepared "tents" or local churches in which the "fish" could grow.

Finally, John is one who comes last as a NET MENDER. The net of the Christian Gospel had been torn, ripped, damaged for many reasons. John having the last word among the apostles, came in to REPAIR, RECOVER, and MEND "that which was from the beginning."

John brought the saints back to the beginning, back to life (divine life).

So we see that the fishing ministry needs the tent making ministry. And both of them need the net mending ministry.

Originally posted by sonship

Witness Lee appears to me not to be so much a fisher of men, as an aquarium keeper.

There were three prominent apostles in the New Testament -

Peter, Paul and John are those three prominent workers.

Peter was called as a FISHER. and Jesus told him he would be a fisher of men. Paul, was a scholar. But in his day job he was ...[text shortened]... fishing ministry needs the tent making ministry. And both of them need the net mending ministry.

As I suspected, he's an aquarium keeper, not a fisher of men.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
As I suspected, he's an aquarium keeper, not a fisher of men.

Explain what you mean then.

What is meant by "an aquarium keeper". Is this a bit of Watchtower jargon that only its initiates would understand?

This might be interesting. I searched all of the books by Witness Lee to find when he referred to the Jehovah's Witnesses. Here are a few quotations.

This quote was on door-knocking as a way of evangelization.

Because I have shared concerning the vital groups, we still at least keep the name vital groups. Some call themselves “vital groups,” but are they vital? Some have had “vital group” meetings for three years, but instead of increasing, they have decreased. Because of this, some have reported to me, saying that door-knocking does not work. This is not true. Two great heretical groups in the United States, the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses, depend almost entirely upon door-knocking. They have nearly no other way for their increase. They only use the one way of door-knocking. According to their statistics of around 1990, the Jehovah's Witnesses in Japan say that they need to knock on six thousand doors to gain one person. However, some of us have only been going out for three weeks or three months without gaining one person and then say that door-knocking does not work. I do not even believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons have the best way of door-knocking. According to my study, we have a much better way. I have not spoken enough on the vital groups due to the shortage of time. From this time I will speak on the vital groups for a whole term of the full-time training. Through this speaking we will be able to see that the Lord has shown us a much better way to gain people through door-knocking than that of the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.

(A Word of Love to the Co-Workers, Elders, Lovers, and Seekers of the Lord, Chapter 1, Section 1)

This strengthens our spirit to visit people and to take care of people regardless of whether they are good or bad. Regardless of what they are, we must go to visit them and keep visiting. According to their statistics, the Jehovah's Witnesses knock on six thousand doors to visit people in order to gain one. They do this legally, but we do not. We have no such law forcing others to go out. However, I am trying my best to help the church to build up the vital groups with such a shepherding spirit full of love and care for others.

We need to have this kind of love and go to tell all the dormant ones who think that the church condemns them that the church does not condemn anyone. Rather, the church wants to see all the dormant ones come back. If they all would come back, I would weep with tears of thanksgiving to the Lord. The Lord can testify for me that I do not condemn anyone. We have no qualification to condemn anyone. Without the Lord's mercy, we would be the same as the dormant ones. Therefore, we must love them. It all depends upon love, as the wise king Solomon said, “Love covers all transgressions” (Prov. 10:12). We love people. We love the opposers, and we love the top rebels. I really mean it. We love them and do not hate them. Who am I? I am not qualified to condemn or to hate. Am I perfect? Even the prophet Isaiah, when he saw the Lord, said, “Woe is me, for I am finished / For I am a man of unclean lips, / And in the midst of a people of unclean lips I dwell” (Isa. 6:5). Who is clean today? If we criticize people and say something bad about them, we are not clean.

(A Word of Love to the Co-Workers, Elders, Lovers, and Seekers of the Lord, Chapter 2, Section 4)

This could be interesting, I use the LSM (Living Stream Ministry) Search Engine to find all the quotes in the books by Witness Lee on "Jehovah's Witness".

Some more samples:

C. The “Bible” of the Jehovah's Witnesses

Although the Jehovah's Witnesses use a version of the Bible, they have modified some parts to agree with their heretical teachings. They do not believe that Jesus Christ is God Himself. They consider Him to be a separate God and a lesser God. John 1:1 tells us, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Their version says, “...and the Word was a God.” They added an “a” to modify the meaning of the verse so it would coincide with their heretical teaching. Therefore, we do not regard their version as the true Bible.



(Lesson Book, Level 6: The Bible—The Word of God, Chapter 4, Section 5)

Some false revelations

The Koran of Islam
The Book of Mormon
The “Bible” of the Jehovah's Witnesses

Where can I find quotes by Witness Lee on "Jehovah's Witnesses" ?

Romans 9:5 says, "Whose are the fathers, and out of whom, as regards what is according to flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen." The Jehovah's Witnesses have a subtle, evil, and satanic way to distort this verse. We must be clear that Christ is God over all, which means that He is above all the created things, and He is blessed forever. The word blessed here means praised, well spoken of, with adoration of respect and desire. We adore God with our respect to Him and our desire for Him. We worship Him in this way. We desire to have Him, and we love Him. We have to speak well of Christ as God to tell the whole universe what He is. This is our blessing Him to praise Him with our adoration. Christ is our God above all things and is worthy to be praised with well-speaking of adoration, respect, and desire.

(Crystallization-Study of the Gospel of John, Chapter 5, Section 2)

Two great heretical groups, the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses, also practice door-knocking. We must realize, though, that Satan always tries to copy what God is doing. It is regrettable that God's children do not go out to visit people. Instead, they may stay at home on Saturday to watch television and talk on the phone, or they may go shopping. After ten years, many Christians may not have brought one person to the Lord. Is this the Lord's will? We are the branches of the vine. The Lord's will is for all the branches to bear fruit. In John 15:16 the Lord said clearly, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and I appointed you that you should go forth and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain." He warned us that as the branches, we will be cut off if we do not bear fruit (John 15:2, 5-6). This is not to perish but to lose the very enjoyment of the rich vine. If we mean business with the Lord, our enjoyment of the Lord will bring forth fruit. However, where is the fruit today? We need to come back to the Word to read what the Lord's will is concerning this matter. If you read what the Lord's will is, you will be one who goes out to visit people.

(The Body of Christ, Chapter 5, Section 4)

Where did Witness Lee ever refer to Jehovah's Witnesses?
I am using the LSM search engine to find some sample quotations from books by Witness Lee

Notice how the Apostle John says such people should be treated: “Receive him not into your house, neither bid him God-speed: For he that biddeth him God-speed is partaker of his evil deeds” (2 John 10-11). People like this are the ones John calls antichrists. They may call themselves Christian and consider themselves part of Christianity, but they deny Christ’s deity, His redemption, His resurrection, and even His virgin birth. They are actually blaspheming Him. In this category of those who have gone too far and are not abiding in the doctrine of Christ are Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Mormons, and the modernists. All these are antichrists.

If the church practices these seven mysteries, it will not tolerate such people. There will be a clear line drawn, because the church will recognize that these have no anointing. The living Body cannot take the presence of corpses, anymore than we would be able to sleep in a room where there was a dead body!

(Seven Mysteries in the First Epistle of John, Chapter 9, Section 2)

Originally posted by sonship
Explain what you mean then.

What is meant by "an aquarium keeper". Is this a bit of Watchtower jargon that only its initiates would understand?

it means he has not gone to people of the nations as directed by Christ but simply has gathered together people that are already 'christians'. Its not very difficult to understand once you think about it. Here is a song for him and his legacy, 'Can i get a witness', because waiting for his organisation to witness to me could be a long wait.

https://soundcloud.com/simon-greenhill-2/motown-can-i-get-a-witness