Jehovah's Witness a Masonic Offshoot ?

Originally posted by sonship
Why the [b]cross on the memorial when you write strongly against it in your liturature ?[/b]

Why? There is no empirical evidence that Christ was actually crucified on a cross. This plus the fact that we have come to realise that the cross is a pagan symbol. The brothers were unaware of it back then.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie

Why? There is no empirical evidence that Christ was actually crucified on a cross. This plus the fact that we have come to realise that the cross is a pagan symbol. The brothers were unaware of it back then.

Okay. You say the brothers were ignorant of this matter THEN. Now they know better you say.

Why did they not remove the symbol from the memorial when they did become AWARE of the alleged error ?

I am watching a pushback video by JWs. Has nice music.
I voluntarily am watching it. Robbie didn't link me to it.

Flip flop doctrine, CT Russell a free mason? Propaganda about Jehovahs witnesses. Exposed

YouTube

I appreciate that the video in defense of imperfect founder Charles Russell admits he used the cross symbol, celebrated Christmas and practiced pyramidology.

They sure beat us Christians over the head about pagan roots of our Gospel faith. Its appropriate that they taste some of their own medicine.

So far, basically the JW video about Russell says in essence "Hey, we know he blew it" to the accompaniment of some emotionally solemn sounding music.

Was the "Pastor" demoted to just a "brother" Robbie ?
Did the JW decide to stop referring to the error committing "Pastor Russell" and change it to "Brother Russell" to counter his mistakes ?

Originally posted by sonship

Why? There is no empirical evidence that Christ was actually crucified on a cross. This plus the fact that we have come to realise that the cross is a pagan symbol. The brothers were unaware of it back then.

Okay. You say the brothers were ignorant of this matter THEN. Now they know better you say.

Why did they not [b]remove the symbol from the memorial when they did become AWARE of the alleged error ?[/b]

How are the brothers responsible for a memorial tomb?

Originally posted by sonship
I think you would object. I don't think today you'd shrug and say it had no significance. I don't think you wish today to be remembered as having anything to do with theism or traditional symbols strongly implying theism.

Do you have a point? How would supposed post death objections to something people did to my grave have anything to do with the issue? You started the thread claiming you were asking an 'honest question'. It turns out that however that this is nothing but a smear campaign - and a dishonest one at that. Surely you can find some genuine problems with JWs beliefs? Or have they beaten you good when it comes to theology?

Originally posted by twhitehead

Do you have a point?

Robbie gets my points regardless if you like to play dense.
I don't see any JW complaining that they can't understand me.

I see him saying he has a disagreement about substance.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
How are the brothers responsible for a memorial tomb?

How are the brothers responsible for a memorial tomb?

So members of the Society or the JW "brotherhood" were not responsible for the memorial ?

If it is desecrated, the JWs will pay no attention to that because they don't care?

You dish out in spades about pagan symbols, pagan political leaders over councils, pagan celebrations, pagan holidays, pagan rituals influencing the development of Christian groups.

How does it feel to taste a little of your own medicine?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Do you have a point? How would supposed post death objections to something people did to my grave have anything to do with the issue? You started the thread claiming you were asking an 'honest question'. It turns out that however that this is nothing but a smear campaign - and a dishonest one at that. Surely you can find some genuine problems with JWs beliefs? Or have they beaten you good when it comes to theology?

Surely you can find some genuine problems with JWs beliefs? Or have they beaten you good when it comes to theology?

Surely I have elaborated specifically with Robbie, Galveston, Roigan on those theological points. IE incarnation, Trinity, matters in eschatology and prophecy.

Nice try on instigating arguments though, between theists, neither of which you could care less about.

Originally posted by sonship
Nice try on instigating arguments though, between theists, neither of which you could care less about.

I am not instigating arguments, I am criticizing you for having an argument and trying to use blatantly dishonest means to win it.
You seem to be under the impression that Charles Taze Russell is worshipped by JWs. That doesn't appear to be the case at all.
Lets suppose for a moment that Charles Taze Russell was a Mason (you haven't demonstrated that he was). That wouldn't justify the thread title. Masonry as far as I am aware isn't a religion. Many Christians are also Masons. The Wikipedia entry on Charles Taze Russell makes it quite clear he was a Christian albeit with some rather odd beliefs.

Originally posted by twhitehead

I am not instigating arguments, I am criticizing you for having an argument and trying to use blatantly dishonest means to win it.

I don't think that is what you are doing. I think you are trying to convince yourself that I write nonsense. And I further think you want to convince yourself that I write gibberish precisely because I have written some things to you that did make a lot of sense.

That's what I think. I think you want me to think that I cannot be coherent or make sense.

I told you that God is not real to you because of your sins. The barrier, the insulation, the obstacle that makes the experience of God not real to you is unforgiven sins. That is sins for which Christ the Redeemer has already made gracious and loving provision. But you don't want to take that provision of forgiveness that God MAY become real in your personal experience.

I think you have a need to persuade yourself that that and nothing else I write makes sense.

You seem to be under the impression that Charles Taze Russell is worshipped by JWs.

Can you quote me where I said he was worshiped or an object of adoration ?

You can't so why try to dishonestly put words into my mouth.

That doesn't appear to be the case at all.

Since I never wrote that they worshiped him its a moot point either way.

I do maintain he is one of the major founding leaders.
And the early beginnings of the Watchtower Society is formed by one very fond, as they themselves admitted, of pyramidology.

They also now admit his use of the cross symbol and practice of Christmas. Why not point out to them the hypocrisy when they attack me of being under pagan influence?

"Physician heal thyself."

Lets suppose for a moment that Charles Taze Russell was a Mason (you haven't demonstrated that he was).

And I wrote here that I would presume him "innocent until proven guilty".

And I wrote I was still studying the matter.
And I wrote that his ideas early on betrayed a similar fascination with masonic gnostic things.
And I wrote the title of this thread as a QUESTION and not an accusation.

And I not only went to see Robbie's rebuttal article but also watched a rebuttal video that I found on my own. I didn't have to do that.

You need to convince yourself I am incapable of honest and objective contemplation.

That wouldn't justify the thread title. Masonry as far as I am aware isn't a religion.

As typical you jump now into fine points about definitions.
Masonry - not a religion
Dawkins - not an evolutionist.
etc.

Some say we Christians argue about the number of angels on the head of a pin.
You seem to argue about definitions on the head of a pin.

It matters not that much if we think of Masonary as a religion or not. I have every right to point out -

Saturnalia is to Christmas ... as
Masonic gnostic mysticism is to Watchtower's early founder's thinking.

Fine definitions about what is a religion have little effect on this parallel. Masonary is exceedingly secretive, ritualistic, and commands a "religious" devotion to it.

I knew a man who bought a car from a Mason. The Mason latter tracked him down with fear because the car that he sold the nonMason had a Masonic SYMBOL on it. The panicked removal of the symbol was said to be his concern over severe discipline from the Masons for letting that symbol fall into the hands of an "outsider".

It doesn't matter that much if you make some issue about definitions about "religion." The devotion to the beliefs are bordering on fanitical. At least intense and reminiscent of sacred adherence associated with religious devotion.

Many Christians are also Masons. The Wikipedia entry on Charles Taze Russell makes it quite clear he was a Christian albeit with some rather odd beliefs.

The question posed in the OP is whether JWs are an offshoot of Masonic Gnostic beliefs. Strong evidence is there that at least Russell, the founder, was quite fond of and influenced in some of those beliefs.

This thread lets the JWs have a little taste of their own medicine.

Clarification:

I wrote -

I knew a man who bought a car from a Mason. The Mason latter tracked him down with fear because the car that he sold the nonMason had a Masonic SYMBOL on it. The panicked removal of the symbol was said to be his concern over severe discipline from the Masons for letting that symbol fall into the hands of an "outsider".

As I recall now more accurately, the panicked Mason seller warned the buyer of the danger to the buyer for having a Masonic symbol on his car which he did not deserve to have.

According to the warning, he said the man could be killed.
That is what the conversation was.
That is all I know.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am not instigating arguments, I am criticizing you for having an argument and trying to use blatantly dishonest means to win it.
You seem to be under the impression that Charles Taze Russell is worshipped by JWs. That doesn't appear to be the case at all.
Lets suppose for a moment that Charles Taze Russell was a Mason (you haven't demonstrated that h ...[text shortened]... harles Taze Russell makes it quite clear he was a Christian albeit with some rather odd beliefs.

Indeed. I don't understand it either. He has been shown clear proof of the refutation of his initial source and yet he clings to some kind of Dan Brown Angels and Daemons conspiracy theory mentality. This is what feeding ones mind on unsubstantiated opinions and conjecture does for you. We are what we feed our minds upon.

Indeed. I don't understand it either. He has been shown clear proof of the refutation of his initial source and yet he clings to some kind of Dan Brown Angels and Daemons conspiracy theory mentality. This is what feeding ones mind on unsubstantiated opinions and conjecture does for you. We are what we feed our minds upon.

Here we can all pause and sing a stanza of a hymn ("What a Friend We Have in Jesus" ) for the JW Robbie -

"What a friend we have in atheism."

Okay, so the atheist / Jehovah's Witness alliance on this thread is strong. So be it.

Now ... Garbage thinking one feeds on.

Here's some - Constantine invented the doctrine of the Trinity.
Garbage history fed and regurgitated here by riogan the JW.

Another garbage feeding morsal dished out here -
There is a distinction between the Mighty God and Jehovah as the Almighty God.

That is garbage exegesis of the Holy Bible taught by JWs. The Truth: Jehovah is both the mighty God and the almighty God.

Another garbage meal served up here by the JWs -

Arians were unfairly ousted from the council of Nicea.
Well, this is more a point of view matter.
If you are an Arian trying to teach people that Jesus is not the Word that was God who became flesh, then I am sure you will think it unfair that Arius's teaching was rejected by the Christian brothers of the past seeking to protect the spread of the Gospel as the apostles taught it.

Another garbage point fed on by the JWs here and served to the public -

A medical blood transfusion is strictly against God's commands.
Garbage of the more practically dangerous sort.

Okay Robbie. You know the Bible tells Christians to avoid even the appearance of evil.

1 Thessalonians 5:22King James Version (KJV)

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Now the article you linked me to by FreeMasonary said both claims were bogus -

That Evangelist Billy Graham was a freemason.
That Charles T Russell was a freemason.

Knowing what you know about BOTH men which one gave more of the APPEARANCE of being associated with the Masons?

Can you point to Billy Graham's dabbling into pyramidology, numerology, arguing that Jesus was not flesh (as the Gnostics do). And JWs do about Jesus after the resurrection - being no more a physical man but a spirit being twisting as you do (1 Cor. 15:45).

Which one of these preachers gave more of an appearance of association with Masonic teachings IF NOT an acknowledged member ?