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Originally posted by knightmeistersorry perhaps you could reiterate colossians chapter 1 verse 15 for us, you know just so that all may recognize the erroneous content of your whacky doctrine. oh, why wait, ill do it for you, it reads, concerning Christ, ' He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation,'. what does this infer, other than Christ was a direct creation, yes it does state creation, just so you cannot glibly overlook this point, IT STATES THAT CHRIST WAS A CREATED BEING, CREATED! CREATED BY GOD, as a spiritual being, before he took on a role as a messianic human. therefore he had a beginning, therefore he cannot conceivably be god, because as i have already stated and given references for, God has always existed.
[b]A father does not "create" a son (except in pinnochio) the Bible says Christ was begotten and through him everything was "created" - but hey ho - just a minor detail.
A father and son are separate but not in essence. They share the same substance and being.[
Originally posted by Rajk999Christ started the whole thing off. His teachings on the Holy Spirit are clearly there but he didn't give us an intellectual framework for it. For example , he said that unless he goes away the Holy Spirit cannot come - say what? Any ideas?
If Christ or Paul did not 'formulate' it ... I aint interested in it.
He may not have formulated it but he certainly kick started it.
Originally posted by knightmeisterI wish you luck with your 'manmade' doctrine.
Christ started the whole thing off. His teachings on the Holy Spirit are clearly there but he didn't give us an intellectual framework for it. For example , he said that unless he goes away the Holy Spirit cannot come - say what? Any ideas?
He may not have formulated it but he certainly kick started it.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt says "firstborn" . When a human being gives birth he gives birth to a being of the same order (ie another human being) . So if an eternal God gives birth what do you think might happen? Do you not think it logical that an eternal Father's firstborn Son would also be eternal?
sorry perhaps you could reiterate colossians chapter 1 verse 15 for us, you know just so that all may recognize the erroneous content of your whacky doctrine. oh, why wait, ill do it for you, it reads, concerning Christ, ' He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation,'. what does this infer, other than Christ was a direct cre ...[text shortened]... bly be god, because as i have already stated and given references for, God has always existed.
A human being can create many things but to give birth to something is a bit different. I might create a painting but it's not the same as having children.
Name an instance in nature where something has given birth to something else that does not share it's nature?
Originally posted by Rajk999Have you nothing to say about Jesus's teachings on the Holy Spirit? He said "when he the comforter comes he will guide you into all truth" - so if you really want to know the truth on this you had better be guided by the Holy Spirit on it. Yes?
I wish you luck with your 'manmade' doctrine.
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Originally posted by Rajk999Here are examples of verses which mention the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You will see that they are chiefly focused on experiencial enjoyment rather than the creedal or fomulaic:
Is that your speculation or is that also in the Bible?
"For this cause I bow my knees to the Father, Of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named, that He would grant you according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His SPirit into the inner man, that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ..." (Eph. 3:14-17)
Here Paul prays to the Father that the believers be strengthened by the Holy Spirit in order that the Son Jesus Christ might make His home in their hearts.
The Triune God - Father, Holy Spirit, and Son are all operating simultaneously to dispense the Son of God into the hearts of the disciples.
The Three of the Trinity in Ephesians 3:14-17 are for the carrying out of God's plan to dispense His life and nature into man for man's exerperience and enjoyment.
Here again we see something similiar:
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Cor. 13:14)
The Three of the Trinity are here related to communion and oneness with God. The grace of the Son and the love of the Father with the felloship of the Holy Spirit are all to simultaneously be with the believers.
The Trinity is mentioned in relation to communion and oneness with the Triune God. It is more of an experiencial utterance than the putting forth of a creedal formula for merely theological purposes.
One more example to show that the Three titles God, Christ, Spirit are used interchangeably by Paul:
"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Romans 8:9-11
Notice first it is the Spirit of God who indwells them. Then we see that the Spirit of God is identical to the Spirit of Christ. Then in the same breath practically Paul says it is Christ who indwells them. So the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ who is Christ Himself.
Then the Spirit of the One Who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in them. The One Who raised Jesus from the dead is the Father. So this is this indwelling Spirit is the Spirit of the Father.
In this passage Paul interchanges these titles in such a way to prove that:
The "Spirit of God" is equal to the Spirit of Christ which is in turn equal to Christ which in turn equals the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.
This is the Trinity operating to give life. That is to dispense the divine and eternal life of God into man. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exist to operate the plan of imparting divine life into man.
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Originally posted by knightmeisterlook, no one is denying that Christ was a divine being, the scripture perhaps needs some explanation in detail, it states that , concerning Christ, ' he is the image of the invisible god,' to use your analogy, when a child is born and in the pram, people say, oh doesn't he look like his daddy, why because the child has a similar genetic makeup to the parents, therefore some resemblance is the natural result, however that the child is a distinct entity cannot be denied, you are distinct from your parents even though you share some of the same characteristics, so with Christ, his is the image of his father in that he had the same god like qualities as an innate part of his being, just as humans also have the capacity to demonstrate god like qualities, Adam and eve also having been made in gods image, in that they possess certain qualities that god himself possesses, like the ability to display justice etc etc,
It says "firstborn" . When a human being gives birth he gives birth to a being of the same order (ie another human being) . So if an eternal God gives birth what do you think might happen? Do you not think it logical that an eternal Father's firstborn Son would also be eternal?
A human being can create many things but to give birth to somethin n nature where something has given birth to something else that does not share it's nature?
Only Christ himself was created directly by god, all other things having been created through Christ, the visible universe etc etc, that is why he has the term, only begotten son applied to him, and as i have demonstrated, or rather the Bible demonstrates, he is a distinct entity, although sharing similar characteristics, just as you do from your own parents
Originally posted by jaywillVery nice. I wish you luck with your manmade doctrine.
Here are examples of verses which mention the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You will see that they are chiefly focused on experiencial enjoyment rather than the creedal or fomulaic:
[b]"For this cause I bow my knees to the Father, Of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named, that He would grant you according to the riches of His glory, to ...[text shortened]... her, Son, and Holy Spirit exist to operate the plan of imparting divine life into man.
Originally posted by jaywilljaywill, you had better to better than that if you are gonna convince some, its very airy fairy and lacks real substance, i know, try to explain colossians chapter 1:15, and how it impacts you understanding of the trinity.
Here are examples of verses which mention the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You will see that they are chiefly focused on experiencial enjoyment rather than the creedal or fomulaic:
[b]"For this cause I bow my knees to the Father, Of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named, that He would grant you according to the riches of His glory, to ...[text shortened]... her, Son, and Holy Spirit exist to operate the plan of imparting divine life into man.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe trinity does allow for the idea that Christ is a distinct being. So what's your problem? God the eternal father , gives birth to the eternal son who is co-equal in essence and substance to the Father. Just as my Son is co-equal in essence to me. I am not of a higher order as a being just because I am his father am I?
look, no one is denying that Christ was a divine being, the scripture perhaps needs some explanation in detail, it states that , concerning Christ, ' he is the image of the invisible god,' to use your analogy, when a child is born and in the pram, people say, oh doesn't he look like his daddy, why because the child has a similar genetic makeup to the ...[text shortened]... stinct entity, although sharing similar characteristics, just as you do from your own parents
The trinity does not say that Christ is the same as the Father. Just as I am not the same as my Son , but he still shares my nature. I reason that it's more accurate to place Christ in the world of the eternal rather than place him amongst the order of created nature which is temporary.
The fact is that by calling God his father Christ was accused of blasphemy because that was to place himself alongside God himself and equal in essence to him. Jesus even said "before Abraham was , I am" and deliberately used the phrase "I AM!" which as you know was what Jehovah was known as (the great I AM). They went to stone him and there is no indication he tries to correct them.
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Only Christ himself was created directly by god, all other things having been created through Christ, the visible universe etc etc, that is why he has the term, only begotten son applied to him, and as i have demonstrated, or rather the Bible demonstrates, he is a distinct entity, although sharing similar characteristics, just as you do from your own parents
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Christ is the Creator as well as the creature.
Since Christ became a man He undoubtly in His humanity is a part of the creation of God. Genesis 1:27 says "And God created man ...".
Therefore we cannot deny that as a man Christ is a part of creation. "The Word became flesh" also proves that the eternal Word took upon Him the item of creation. God was incarnated.
So we have the complete God and the perfect man in one Person - Jesus Christ. He is the Creator as well as the creation.
"All things came into being through Him [the Word], and apart from Him [the Word] not one thing came into being which has come into being." (John 1:3)
So we know that the Word before His incarnation was with God and was God and is the Creator.
Then in verse 14 it says that the Word became flesh - "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory glory as of the only Begotten from the Father, full of grace and reality." (John 1:14)
If flesh and manhood are items of the creation of God (Genesis 1:27) AND if the Word is God (John 1:1) through whom all things came into being, then we must believe that Christ is the eternal God as well as the created man.
Christ is the universal mingling of Divinity and Humanity. He is the God-man.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieit states that , concerning Christ, ' he IS the image of the invisible god,'
look, no one is denying that Christ was a divine being, the scripture perhaps needs some explanation in detail, it states that , concerning Christ, ' he is the image of the invisible god,' to use your analogy, when a child is born and in the pram, people say, oh doesn't he look like his daddy, why because the child has a similar genetic makeup to the ...[text shortened]... stinct entity, although sharing similar characteristics, just as you do from your own parents
Adam and eve also having been MADE IN gods image, in that they possess certain qualities that god himself possesses,
-------------------------------rob---------------
Spot the difference?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieOnly Christ himself was created directly by god, all other things having been created through Christ, the visible universe etc etc
look, no one is denying that Christ was a divine being, the scripture perhaps needs some explanation in detail, it states that , concerning Christ, ' he is the image of the invisible god,' to use your analogy, when a child is born and in the pram, people say, oh doesn't he look like his daddy, why because the child has a similar genetic makeup to the ...[text shortened]... stinct entity, although sharing similar characteristics, just as you do from your own parents
Funny, this was never mentioned in Genesis, the chapter that deals with the creation of the universe. Sure if it Christ was created first and everything else through him, it would have been covered there.
I think you are drawing unjustified conclusions from a muddled text.
--- Penguin.
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Originally posted by Penguinwhat are you talking about???? oh man your in for it now, have you never read, 'and god said, let US make man in OUR image'', with reference to whom may i add, none other than Christ himself, how do we know? as the context of colossians clearly shows,
[b]Only Christ himself was created directly by god, all other things having been created through Christ, the visible universe etc etc
Funny, this was never mentioned in Genesis, the chapter that deals with the creation of the universe. Sure if it Christ was created first and everything else through him, it would have been covered there.
I think you are drawing unjustified conclusions from a muddled text.
--- Penguin.[/b]
'He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist,'.
Christ himself, even stated to the Pharisees, that before Abraham was, he himself had existed, with reference to his pre human existence,
'Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” , Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” John 8:57.
sorry penguin , i only realized it was you after i posted this text, you see im in a seige at the moment and beg your pardon, i thought that this was a reply from an earlier post, your not in for anything except an apology.