Originally posted by knightmeisterperhaps if you actually posted some scriptures, you know, something with content then perhaps we could discuss those instead of the reasoning's and 'logic', of your deluded mind!
It's not a question of logic versus scripture you know , it's using both together. If there was anything unscriptural about my last post then you would no doubt have challenged it as so. The fact that Jesus said he would judge mankind (a role usually reserved for God himself) is entirely scriptural. The fact that he said he was to live in us is also sc ...[text shortened]... r to have stayed clear of all that and place a clear line between himself and God instead?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt is not a matter of my imagination. It is a matter that some students of the Bible apparently read the passages more carefully and noticed.
sorry it was such an imaginative and well written piece of fiction i did not want to spoil it for you, but if you like i can show you the refutation!
So show me your alternative interpretation of Zechariah 2:8-11.
And I'll show you that we have exactly the same kind of thing going on in John chapter 14.
Originally posted by jaywillhaha, hehe, it is to laugh, that you should even try, to prove from the Hebrew portions of Gods holy word, a claim that God sent himself, thus meaning that somehow there are two gods spoken of is ludicrous to the extreme, but so be it, you have thrown down the gauntlet and i will make with the reddies - thanks for the smaller post - really my eyes are not what the should be!
It is not a matter of my imagination. It is a matter that some students of the Bible apparently read the passages more carefully and noticed.
So show me your alternative interpretation of [b]Zechariah 2:8-11.
And I'll show you that we have exactly the same kind of thing going on in John chapter 14.[/b]
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Originally posted by robbie carrobie==================================
is there any chance you could make your posts smaller as i find that by the time i have got to the end I am either lost trying to understand the various components and secondly it would save you a whole bunch of typing verses that have nothing to do with the context under discussion, and terms like Godman, and mystery are not really helping you much, r God to subject himself to himself, really think about what it is you are actually saying 😀
is there any chance you could make your posts smaller as i find that by the time i have got to the end I am either lost trying to understand the various components and secondly it would save you a whole bunch of typing verses that have nothing to do with the context under discussion,
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I don't think so in a debate like this. I'll try. But you also should try to enlarge your attention span.
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and terms like Godman,
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Godman simply means God and man united. This is a big theme in the Bible.
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and mystery are not really helping you much,
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To speak of the mystery of Christ is not my invention. It is my quotation of the New Testament.
That complaint you should take to the Holy Spirit and the Apostle Paul .
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also that the word, 'was God', you yourself had a distaste to discuss, because a perfectly sound rendering was devastating to this claim,
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Far from devastating orthodox Christian teaching, it is a bit of theological qwackery. It has been refuted centries ago.
But if you want to believe that, go ahead. Not me.
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how is it possible for god to die jaywill,
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Now that is a very good question.
I don't know. I do know that the Bible says that we are commanded to believe into Christ.
I didn't see the passage saying that we are commanded to be able to explain Christ fully. If the author of 13 of the 27 NT books confessed it was a great mystery, then I feel safe to also say that it is a great mystery.
I also cannot explain how the Word can be with God and be God.
But I believe it.
Did and does He not act and taste as God Himself though He be a man ? I mean even more so than any prophet of the Old Testament or New.
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that is what you are saying? does not this alone contradict your whole stance,
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I think John meant us to understand that the Word was with God and WAS that same God, not another one.
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IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR GOD TO DIE jaywill,
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You have a good point. Don't think we Christians have not thought of all this. However, Acts 20:28 says that the elders should "shepherd the church of God which He obtained with His own blood".
Though Darby has a note that he renders that the blood of His own, I agree with the scholars who point out that God had to be incarnated to have blood in order to redeem the church - which He obtained with His[ God's] own blood..
If the Word who was God became flesh, then God would have human blood to shed. I think He passed through death and transcends it. This is a point of the Savior's resurrection. He passed through it but He could not be destroyed by it.
It is very mysterious. Therefore the Apostle speaks of "holding the mystery of the faith" and "the mystery of godliness - God manifest in the flesh".
I am not afraid to confess that these things are mysterious. Are you ?
That is all I have to respond to you now. Time to go on to other things.
Originally posted by jaywillJaywill you have once again managed to filter out the most devastating part of the argument in that Christ, after his resurrection SUBJECTS himself to God, yes he SUBJECTS himself to god, Why because like a son he is SUBJECT to his father, how convenient that you missed this part out!
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is there any chance you could make your posts smaller as i find that by the time i have got to the end I am either lost trying to understand the various components and secondly it would save you a whole bunch of typing verses that have nothing to do with the context under discussion,
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That is all I have to respond to you now. Time to go on to other things.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou seem to have decided that I am deluded for some reason but you have yet to back this up with any argument.
perhaps if you actually posted some scriptures, you know, something with content then perhaps we could discuss those instead of the reasoning's and 'logic', of your deluded mind!
Is it because I disagree with your position that I am deluded? If so that would be very convenient.
I think there is enough scripture being posted around here for an entire forum so I am loathe to start adding to it too much.
I have the feeling that reason and calm logic will not be able to reach you. You seem fixed in a way of thinking.
I do not need to post loads of scripture to back up my points. If they are not in scripture you would have said so. Jesus DID say that he would judge the world and he DID say he would live in us (amongst other things) , do you not want to discuss these things?
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieI did not miss this Robert. This is the other side of the truth of the Trinity.
Jaywill you have once again managed to filter out the most devastating part of the argument in that Christ, after his resurrection SUBJECTS himself to God, yes he SUBJECTS himself to god, Why because like a son he is SUBJECT to his father, how convenient that you missed this part out!
There is the side of the one and there is the side of the three.
As I said before, the problem is not that I believe something extra. It is that you do not accept enough.
With you it has to be one side or the other. Either the Word was with God OR the Word WAS God. With you it cannot be both.
I believe both. And I also would defend the subjection of the Son to the Father, obedience to the Father, exaltation by the Father.
Originally posted by knightmeisterlook dude, post the scriptures and make with the reddies, i am prepared to discuss ANY scripture that you care to site, I love Gods word the Bible, Christ stated, ''your (gods) word is truth''. (john 17:17), as to these other references to mystery and the such, that's for those who seem disposed to wallow in self assertions, whereas quite clearly the scriptures indicate that we should be able to distinguish between right and wrong and even put to the test, every inspired utterance as to whether it is so, and clearly warns against those who adulterate the word of truth (2 Corinthians 4:2), which i believe the trinity is, therefore if you want to discuss anything that is actually in the Bible then im your man, otherwise i have a limited amount of time and would rather spend it on more productive pursuits - regards Robert.
You seem to have decided that I am deluded for some reason but you have yet to back this up with any argument.
Is it because I disagree with your position that I am deluded? If so that would be very convenient.
I think there is enough scripture being posted around here for an entire forum so I am loathe to start adding to it too much.
I hav ...[text shortened]... he DID say he would live in us (amongst other things) , do you not want to discuss these things?
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as to these other references to mystery and the such, that's for those who seem disposed to wallow in self assertions,
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You mean like the Apostle Paul ?
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whereas quite clearly the scriptures indicate that we should be able to distinguish between right and wrong
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We have not been talking about morality as much as the nature of God and the Person of Christ.
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and even put to the test, every inspired utterance as to whether it is so, and clearly warns against those who adulterate the word of truth (2 Corinthians 4:2),
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Interestingly, that is precisely the same book which says: "Now the Lord is the Spirit ..."
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which i believe the trinity is, therefore if you want to discuss anything that is actually in the Bible then im your man,
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The Son is the Eternal Father and the Lord is the Spirit.
You twisted John 1:1 to be "a god".
You twisted Isaiah 9:6 to be Father of Futurity.
No doubt you have some twisting for 2 Cor. 3:17 that the Lord Jesus Christ is not the Spirit.
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otherwise i have a limited amount of time and would rather spend it on more productive pursuits - regards Robert.
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I think so too.
Originally posted by jaywilleither the word was with THE God and the word was a god i.e. divine, or a whole generation of Coptic verse, attested to by renowned biblical Scholars, is erroneous, and jaywill i have no problem rejecting pre christian and essentially pagan ideas which have done nothing more than adulterate the word of the living God! Let the lesson of the Pharisees, who actually negated the word of God, why, because they adhered more closely to the traditions of men and human ideas to such an extent that it negated the actual word of God, they added to it something that it was not lawful to do, i do not want to share the same fate as them!
I did not miss this Robert. This is the other side of the truth of the Trinity.
There is the side of the one and there is the side of the three.
As I said before, the problem is not that I believe something extra. It is that you do not accept enough.
With you it has to be one side or the other. Either the Word was with God OR the Word WAS God. W ...[text shortened]... fend the subjection of the Son to the Father, obedience to the Father, exaltation by the Father.
Originally posted by jaywilli do not know if you noticed, but emmm, i was not alive in the third century, i cannot speak Coptic and God has never inspired me to write a bible verse, therefore either you accept the authenticity of the coptic script which states (not me as you have wrongly assumed) that the word was 'a god', different from '(the God) or you don't, its not me who has to stand before Christ and explain why i loved Pagan ideas and adulterations of the Word of God
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as to these other references to mystery and the such, that's for those who seem disposed to wallow in self assertions,
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You mean like the Apostle Paul ?
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whereas quite clearly the scriptures indicate that we should be able t ...[text shortened]... rsuits - regards Robert.
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I think so too.[/b]
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Originally posted by robbie carrobie==============================
either the word was with THE God and the word was a god i.e. divine, or a whole generation of Coptic verse, attested to by renowned biblical Scholars, is erroneous, and jaywill i have no problem rejecting pre christian and essentially pagan ideas which have done nothing more than adulterate the word of the living God! Let the lesson of the Pharisees, ...[text shortened]... dded to it something that it was not lawful to do, i do not want to share the same fate as them!
i have no problem rejecting pre christian and essentially pagan ideas which have done nothing more than adulterate the word of the living God! Let the lesson of the Pharisees, who actually negated the word of God, why, because they adhered more closely to the traditions of men and human ideas to such an extent that it negated the actual word of God, they added to it something that it was not lawful to do, i do not want to share the same fate as them!
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What surprises me the most is that you seemed uncomfortable with the teaching of Jesus Christ indwelling the believers.
Is it me or did you appear to reject such an idea as ludicrous ?
Well, have you seen Paul ask the Corinthians to test themselves to see if they were in the genuine Christian faith or not ? Here it is.
"Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor. 13:5)
How do you come out with such a test ? Do you have the certainty that Jesus Christ lives in you ? Do you hoot the idea down because, why should He want to live in you if He is living in Heaven ?
How do you come out from such a self examination ? Are you approved according to the genuine Christian faith?
Can you say that you have realized that Jesus Christ is in you ? Did you know that as the life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) Jesus Christ can come into your innermost being ?
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Originally posted by jaywillno i do not imagine that for one minute Jesus Christ is in me jaywill, what an earth would he be doing there? I am a human, he is a mighty spirit creature, how can he live in me, i am flesh and blood, spirits live in the spiritual realm, not in humans? what are you talking about?
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i have no problem rejecting pre christian and essentially pagan ideas which have done nothing more than adulterate the word of the living God! Let the lesson of the Pharisees, who actually negated the word of God, why, because they adhered more closely to the traditions of men and human ideas to such an extent that it hat as the life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) Jesus Christ can come into your innermost being ?
Once again it is a very poor translation which leads to this erroneous idea, Christ could never literally be in a person, therefore it means something else, elsewhere Paul talks about putting on the mind of Christ, (Romans 15:5) adopting the same disposition of Christ, the same mental inclinations, aspirations etc etc, Christ himself speaks of a pattern, a role model for us to closely follow (john 13:15), this is the real sense of Christ being 'in us', not some spiritual experience, although i do not, nor cannot speak if anyone else experiences these things, it is such a subjective occurrence that no one can possibly discount it, although i myself have not experienced it, maybe as the scriptures say, i am disapproved, i could not discount that either!