1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobie=======================================
no i do not imagine that for one minute Jesus Christ is in me jaywill, what an earth would he be doing there? I am a human, he is a mighty spirit creature, how can he live in me, i am flesh and blood, spirits live in the spiritual realm, not in humans? what are you talking about?
Once again it is a very poor translation which leads to this erron perienced it, maybe as the scriptures say, i am disapproved, i could not discount that either!
no i do not imagine that for one minute Jesus Christ is in me jaywill, what an earth would he be doing there? I am a human, he is a mighty spirit creature, how can he live in me, i am flesh and blood, spirits live in the spiritual realm, not in humans? what are you talking about?
==========================================
The promise of Jesus Christ to His disciples was that He and His Father would come to make an abode with those who love Him?
"Jesus answered amd saod tp him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will live him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
If you have a talk with Jesus and tell Him that you believe in Him and that you love Him, or at least you want to learn to love Him, He and His Father will come into you and make an abode with you.
==========================================
Once again it is a very poor translation which leads to this erroneous idea, Christ could never literally be in a person,
==========================================
That is not what the New Testament teaches. "As many as received Him to , to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12,13)
You should have a talk with Jesus and tell Him that you believe in Him and receive Him. Then you will be born of God.Then the Father and the Son will come and make an abode within you. And you will know that Christ has come to live in you.
========================================
therefore it means something else, elsewhere Paul talks about putting on the mind of Christ, (Romans 15:5) adopting the same disposition of Christ,
=======================================
You cannot do that until Christ comes to make His home in your heart through faith. He is a living God, a living Savior. Receiving Him into your innermost being is the beginning.
======================================
the same mental inclinations, aspirations etc etc, Christ himself speaks of a pattern, a role model for us to closely follow (john 13:15), this is the real sense of Christ being 'in us',
=========================================
The real meaning of Christ being in you is that the Holy Spirit causes you to be born again and you are washed in the blood of Jesus of all your sins.
Jesus said that those who believe into Him would have the Spirit flowing out of their innermost being:
"Now in the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out saying, If anyone thirsts, let Him come to Me and drink. He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.
But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:37-39)
Jesus has now resurrected and been glorified. If you are spiritually thirsty deep within you should receive Christ. Then the Holy Spirit as rivers of living water will flow within your being and quench your thirst for God.
=======================================
not some spiritual experience, although i do not, nor cannot speak if anyone else experiences these things, it is such a subjective occurrence that no one can possibly discount it, although i myself have not experienced it, maybe as the scriptures say, i am disapproved, i could not discount that either!
===========================================
Forget about doctrinal arguments now. Talk to the Father and receive Christ as your Savior and Lord. Open your heart and receive Jesus by faith. Believe that His precious blood can cleanse you from all your sins.
Jesus Christ will keep His promises and come into you if you open and invite Him into your life.
Originally posted by Rajk999Two people being equal does not mean they are one and the same.
Must be some Trinitarian lingo or logic because it makes no sense to me, neither to any normal 10 yr old kid.
Even if you are right about Jesus making himself equal to God (and you are not), how do you go from being equal to being the same being? Two people being equal does not mean they are one and the same. Am I missing something or are your conclusions ...[text shortened]... (God) knows when the kingdom will come. Nobody else. Clearly a statement expressing inequality.
Yeah, so? I never said the Father and the Son are "one and the same."
Am I missing something or are your conclusions simply the inevitable result of a brainwashed mind?
You are missing something.
Clearly a statement expressing inequality.
The Father and the Son can have different functions without inequality. My wife and I have different functions, yet we are equal. Your conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from your premise.
Originally posted by BadwaterThe writer(s) of John create a witness that is much different from the Synoptic Gospels...
To look at a tree and ignore the forest and then say you're assessed the environment is a tad foolish.
The writer(s) of John create a witness that is much different from the Synoptic Gospels, and their agenda is to say that Jesus is God walking on the earth. Never mind that other Gospels and writings have a different take; those that are older than John ...[text shortened]... be sliding on and I have no idea why so many get a thrill in careening down it uncontrollably.
"Create" a witness? How does one "create" a witness? A curious choice of words, to say the least. Are you suggesting that the book of John was fabricated? And why does the fact that John is different than the Synoptic Gospels necessarily mean that it is somehow inaccurate? Two different people can witness the same event(s) and come away with two different perspectives, right? Why not in this case? Or we could consider that the authors of the various Gospels were writing for different audiences at different times, which would have influenced their storytelling (regarding what themes were stressed over others, etc.). Why should I think something sinister is taking place when there are more plausible explanations available?
God would not have needed to invade the body of a human to save humanity.
Did you forget about the OT prophecies concerning Christ? Whether or not God needed to "invade the body of a human," as you put it, isn't the point. The point is, the Incarnation was God's plan. And it was His plan from the get-go: "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her Offspring; He will bruise and tread your head underfoot, and you will lie in wait and bruise His heel" (Genesis 3:15, AMP).
It is illogical to surmise that with Jesus he would suddenly need to be one with a human.
Suddenly? Again, have you forgotten OT prophecy concerning the Messiah? There was nothing "sudden" about the Incarnation.
For what reason would that be?
To carry the burden of humanity's Sin, God would have needed a body in which to suffer. Have you studied the Bible much?
Just because one Gospel writer on a mission thinks that is the case does not make it so. That's a slippery theological slope to be sliding on and I have no idea why so many get a thrill in careening down it uncontrollably.
It seems the slippery theological slope which you are careening down is much more hazardous than mine. I'm talking about your belief that the Gospels themselves are not trustworthy. If you truly believe that, that's fine. But as far as "theological" slopes go, that one's a doozy.
To each their own, I guess.
- Joined
- 07 Jan 08
- Moves
- 34575
Originally posted by epiphinehas"Create" a witness? How does one "create" a witness?
[b]The writer(s) of John create a witness that is much different from the Synoptic Gospels...
"Create" a witness? How does one "create" a witness? A curious choice of words, to say the least. Are you suggesting that the book of John was fabricated? And why does the fact that John is different than the Synoptic Gospels necessarily mean that it ...[text shortened]... s "theological" slopes go, that one's a doozy.
To each their own, I guess.[/b]
By writing it. It is created through the act of writing and is going to reflect the interpretations (biases) of the writer. I'm not saying that the Book of John is fabricated, I'm saying it is not congruent to the Synoptics in a lot of ways and that the differences are significant and should be noted.
Did you forget about the OT prophecies concerning Christ?
Which OT prophesies that you seem to be referring to specifically to Jesus of Nazareth and not the many 'messiahs' that were part of the messianic Jewish tradition that started about 400 years before his birth? They do not prophesy Jesus specifically. They are not any more valid than a prophesy by Nostradamus that is attached after the fact and not beforehand. I view this attempt at false exegesis with a high degree of skepticism.
Suddenly? Again, have you forgotten OT prophecy concerning the Messiah? There was nothing "sudden" about the Incarnation.
Wow, now you're inventing things I said. I said it was illogical and I explained why. Sorry you're off on your messianic OT prophesies that have not a thing to do with what I'm talking about.
To carry the burden of humanity's Sin, God would have needed a body in which to suffer. Have you studied the Bible much?
Horse hockey. And I've studied the Bible and how the canon came to existence enough that anytime you want to match my knowledge of theology you just come on down, sonny. Tell me what you know about Iraneaus.
You want to take shots at the history and logic of what I'm talking about, you go right ahead. But the personal shots are uncalled for. I have scores and scores of texts and periodicals on theology and Christian history and if you want to throw with me I'll make your ears bleed. ðŸ˜
2 edits
Originally posted by BadwaterYou want to take shots at the history and logic of what I'm talking about, you go right ahead. But the personal shots are uncalled for.
[b]"Create" a witness? How does one "create" a witness?
By writing it. It is created through the act of writing and is going to reflect the interpretations (biases) of the writer. I'm not saying that the Book of John is fabricated, I'm saying it is not congruent to the Synoptics in a lot of ways and that the differences are significant and should be hristian history and if you want to throw with me I'll make your ears bleed. 😠[/b]
I didn't intend for that to be a personal shot, as it was an honest question. I simply had the impression that you may not have studied the Bible in any great depth.
So, go ahead, make my ears bleed. Explain to me why Jesus was unnecessary.
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillHi Jaywill, i do believe all these things that you mention, really i do, i am so thankful for the sacrifice of Christ on my behalf, i have full confidence that it can atone for any sin, no matter how grievous, i love the manifestation of Christ in scripture, really i do, but i simply can find no evidence that Christ dwells 'inside', infact i do not really understand this statement, yes we can be a recipient of holy spirit, yes we can try our very best to imitative the wonderful example set by Christ and God, but that Christ dwells within a person i do not understand, do you mean in a literal sense, or a spiritual sense?
[b]=======================================
no i do not imagine that for one minute Jesus Christ is in me jaywill, what an earth would he be doing there? I am a human, he is a mighty spirit creature, how can he live in me, i am flesh and blood, spirits live in the spiritual realm, not in humans? what are you talking about?
================================= rist will keep His promises and come into you if you open and invite Him into your life.
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobie==========================================
Hi Jaywill, i do believe all these things that you mention, really i do, i am so thankful for the sacrifice of Christ on my behalf, i have full confidence that it can atone for any sin, no matter how grievous, i love the manifestation of Christ in scripture, really i do, but i simply can find no evidence that Christ dwells 'inside', infact i do not r ...[text shortened]... lls within a person i do not understand, do you mean in a literal sense, or a spiritual sense?
that Christ dwells 'inside', infact i do not really understand this statement, yes we can be a recipient of holy spirit, yes we can try our very best to imitative the wonderful example set by Christ and God, but that Christ dwells within a person i do not understand, do you mean in a literal sense, or a spiritual sense?
===========================================
The Bible says that in regeneration the human spirit, the deepest part of man, is joined to the Holy Spirit. The two become mingled as "one spirit".
"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)
The human spirit becomes joined to the Holy Spirit to blend together as "one spirit".
Since the "the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17) for the Spirit to be "one spirit" with the believer's spirit means that the Lord Jesus Christ is with the believer's spirit. Therefore Paul says "The Lord be with your spirit." (2 Tim. 4:22)
The fact of Christ the Lord being with the spirit of the believer means that Christ is in the believer -
1.) " ... Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27)
2.) " ... it is Christ who lives in me ..." (Gal. 2:20)
3.) " ... do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved ? " (2 Cor. 13:5)
4.) "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
5.) "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:20)
Christ comes to live in the believer so that He might be their divine life. It is not to imitate Christ in a lifeless and mechanical way. It is to live in union with Christ in a mingled and blended way.
" Abide in Me and I in you." (John 15:4)
"When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory." (Col. 3:4)
" ... now Christ will be magnified in my body, whether through life or through death." (Phil. 1:20)
"For to me, to live is Christ ..." (Phil. 1:21)
The task of the born again Christian is to learn gradually to live in oneness and in union with the One who has come to live within him.
But you must know that the entire Christian life depends on the indwelling of Christ. That is Christ being the Spirit living in the innermost being of the believer.
If you believe in Christ's redemption, you really should begin to thank Him that He does live in you. Or you should proclaim it as a fact by faith. Or if you do not love Him you should invite Christ to come to make His home in your heart sense you accept that He has already died for your sins.
Your prayers should be according to all of the verses I have just shared with you.
Originally posted by PinkFloydYes, that is possible. It's possible that St Thomas was wrong, too.
Thanks for the reference, but it doesn't sway me. As much can be said for the simple argument that Thomas meant exactly what he said--that he was simultaneously addressing God and Jesus.
Do you think that it's possible Jesus was wrong about Himself, when He was speaking to St Mary
Magdalene in reference to 'her God and His God?'
Nemesio
Originally posted by jaywillThey can, of course, but they'd be deviating from what the authors of Scripture actually say.
The believers can make [b]NO DISCERNABLE SEPERATION between them. And there is nothing suggesting that the God abiding in the believers is a created one. Rather He is the eternal one, the Father, and the uncreated eternal life.[/b]
You've not confronted a single passage I've addressed. You ignore what I say, and toss out a few
more passages which, upon examination, don't support your claim.
You can make no discernible separation between them, but doing so ignore the separation
that St Paul made, that the authors of the Gospels made, and if you believe in the literalness of
the historic record, the distinct separation Jesus made between Himself and God.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioI'm not familiar with that verse; sounds interesting, though. I will have to look it up.
Yes, that is possible. It's possible that St Thomas was wrong, too.
Do you think that it's possible Jesus was wrong about Himself, when He was speaking to St Mary
Magdalene in reference to 'her God and His God?'
Nemesio
Originally posted by Rajk999Oh, but someone did say that Christ is God: Christ Himself.
That was actually a rhetorical question. Nobody in the Bible said that Christ is God or that God is Christ. Dont waste your time.
"I and the Father are One."---Jesus Christ
"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."---Jesus Christ
Originally posted by robbie carrobieHe has to live in us , otherwise how can he judge us? In order for his judgement to be correct and fair he has to know all our struggles and all our innermost thoughts and feelings. How do you think he knows this? Because he lives in us.
Hi Jaywill, i do believe all these things that you mention, really i do, i am so thankful for the sacrifice of Christ on my behalf, i have full confidence that it can atone for any sin, no matter how grievous, i love the manifestation of Christ in scripture, really i do, but i simply can find no evidence that Christ dwells 'inside', infact i do not r ...[text shortened]... lls within a person i do not understand, do you mean in a literal sense, or a spiritual sense?
He knows exactly how it feels to be you . He knows how you feel when you have a headache , he knows the hairs on your head , everything. He also said that if we feed our brother we are feeding him- that must mean that our brother is indwelt by Christ. He said "remain in me as I remain in you" . What do you think he meant?
I also find it strange that you would ask whether this is in a literal sense or spiritual sense. If it is true spiritually then it is also true literally , he meant what he said and it was not metaphorical or symbolic.
It always amazes me how people can know the scriptures so well but completely miss the whole central revelation contained within.
1 edit
Knightmiester,
You wrote:
==========================================
He has to live in us , otherwise how can he judge us? In order for his judgement to be correct and fair he has to know all our struggles and all our innermost thoughts and feelings. How do you think he knows this? Because he lives in us.
========================================
But isn't it true that He will judge the unbelievers also ? And they do not have the indwelling of Christ.
So I wonder if this reason you give is the best for why Christ has to and wants to live within His saved people.
4 edits
Originally posted by Nemesio=================================
They can, of course, but they'd be deviating from what the authors of Scripture actually say.
You've not confronted a single passage I've addressed. You ignore what I say, and toss out a few
more passages which, upon examination, don't support your claim.
You can make no discernible separation between them, but doing so ignore the separation
...[text shortened]...
the historic record, the distinct separation Jesus made between Himself and God.
Nemesio
He has to live in us , otherwise how can he judge us? In order for his judgement to be correct and fair he has to know all our struggles and all our innermost thoughts and feelings. How do you think he knows this? Because he lives in us.
====================================
I don't think you understand me.
In subjective experience we cannot detect any seperation between the Three of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
We certainly can speak of distinction as the Gospels often speak. But verses such as these, subjectively and experiencially allow us no abilty to detect a seperation.
For example:
"Now the Lord is the Spirit. And where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom." (2 Cor. 3:17)
The Lord there is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Spirit. The Spirit there is the Holy Spirit.
"In this we know that we abide in Him [God] and He in us, that He has given to us of His Spirit." (1 John 4:13)
The believers knows that God abides in her and she in God by means of the Holy Spirit that God has given to her. She can detect no seperation though the Bible speaks of distinction between the Father and the Holy Spirit.
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we might know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ, this is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)
We the Christians are in Him who is true which is to be in His Son Jesus Christ. We therefore cannot detect any seperation.
"And in this we know that He [Jesus Christ ] abides in us, by the Spirit whom He gave us." (1 John 3:24)
The only way the Christian knows that Jesus abides in him is by means of the Holy Spirit that Jesus has given to abide in them. There is no possiblity to detect a seperation between Son and Holy Spirit in the subjective experience of the Christian.
" But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you, if indeed anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of HIm. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Christ Jesus from the dead dwells in you ..." (Romans 8:8-11)
The interchangeable titles Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, Christ, Spirit of the one who reaised Christ Jesus from the dead ... make a distinction but no seperation.
The Father and the Son come to dwell in the believers. Yet they are one God to the believer and one detectable Divine Person:
" Jesus answered and said to him, IF anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We [Father and Son] will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
For the Son to come is for the Father to come. For the Father to come is for the Son to come. For the Spirit to come is for the Father and the Son to come.
We believers can detect no experiencial seperation though there is a distinction.
Seven times in Revelation chapters 2,3 each letter is started by Jesus Christ the Son. Yet each letter concludes with a call to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Christ addresses the church in the beginning. And in the end we are told to hear what the Spirit says.
Jesus also said that the Holy Spirit's coming to the disciples was His not leavning them orphans and His coming to them:
"Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive because it does not behold HIm or know HIm, but you know HIm, because He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you." (John 14:17,18)
This coming of Jesus is not the Second Coming. This is His coming to the disciples as the Holy Spirit, the Another Comforter, the Spirit of truth. In verse 17 He says that He, the Spirit, will be in you. And in the very next verse 18 He says "I will not leave you as orphans. I am coming to you."
The disciples will not be able to detect any seperation between the Holy Spirit who is within them and the Son who is coming to them.
The last Adam became a life giving Spirit. Jesus Christ became the life giving Spirit. And it is the Spirit who gives life (2 Cor. 3:6; Romans 8:2)
And Jesus said that He came that we might have life (John 10:10). Yet He gives life by Himself becoming the life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45)[/b].
So I stand by what I wrote. In the subjective experience of the enjoyment of the Triune God, the believer cannot detect any seperation between the Three of the Godhead.
1 edit
Now about Christ's second coming physically. Some may argue and say "Don't you think that when Jesus comes again on the clouds there will be a seperation between the indwelling Holy Spirit and the one they see coming?"
What is not often understood is the His coming again is from two directions. As He is coming down He is coming up from within His people.
It is like two ends of a circle which will join together. His coming from above is matched by His coming from with the spirits of His people.
He is coming back and He is coming out. He is coming from above and He is coming from within.
This is marvelous.