27 Oct 08
Originally posted by epiphinehasMust be some Trinitarian lingo or logic because it makes no sense to me, neither to any normal 10 yr old kid.
You are working hard to miss the obvious, aren't you?
__________
Jesus is indeed making Himself equal to God. Read the verse again. It's a narrative:
"This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18, ES ...[text shortened]... s they honor the Father" (John 5:23, NKJV).
Why? Because they are equal, of course.
Even if you are right about Jesus making himself equal to God (and you are not), how do you go from being equal to being the same being? Two people being equal does not mean they are one and the same. Am I missing something or are your conclusions simply the inevitable result of a brainwashed mind?
Cant remember the verse now but Christ did say that only the Father (God) knows when the kingdom will come. Nobody else. Clearly a statement expressing inequality.
27 Oct 08
3 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999Rajk999,
Must be some Trinitarian lingo or logic because it makes no sense to me, neither to any normal 10 yr old kid.
Even if you are right about Jesus making himself equal to God (and you are not), how do you go from being equal to being the same being? Two people being equal does not mean they are one and the same. Am I missing something or are your conclusions ...[text shortened]... (God) knows when the kingdom will come. Nobody else. Clearly a statement expressing inequality.
Your rebuttals are mostly fluff. Do you know that ?
If you have an effective counterpoint, let's hear it.
A lot less bluster please. A little more substance please.
You are missing something. You're missing what you don't want to believe yet is WRITTEN. You only want a portion of what is written.
You're myopic and constricted, in addition to having an short attention span. It is not that KM believes something extra. It is that you do not believe enough.
27 Oct 08
Originally posted by jaywillI have 2 boxes of grapes that are both 10 lbs
Rajk999,
Your rebuttals are mostly fluff. Do you know that ?
If you have an effective counterpoint, let's hear it.
A lot less bluster please. A little more substance please.
You [b]are missing something. You're missing what you don't want to believe yet is WRITTEN. You only want a portion of what is written.
You're myo ...[text shortened]... tion span. It is not that KM believes something extra. It is that you do not believe enough.[/b]
They are EQUAL in weight, height, length, volume. colour, texture ... whatever.
BUT THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
Get it ?
27 Oct 08
Originally posted by jaywillYou keep citing these examples that disprove your point, not prove it.
The passage about Thomas exactly underscores the Apostle John's whole introductory teaching of his Gospel.
[b]And the Word was with God. And the Word was God.
There was a distinction. But there was no seperation.
Once again. So the "church fathers" saw this mystery. They compared it to their experience of God, and they coined the term Trinity to express it.[/b]
What happened to the Word?
It was enfleshed (sarks egeneto) and tabernacled (eskenosen) within Jesus and came to dwell
among humankind.
This is distinction and separation.
Nemesio
27 Oct 08
Originally posted by jaywillYou haven't rebutted a single interpretation of mine. I've addressed all of yours. All you do is
Rajk999,
Your rebuttals are mostly fluff. Do you know that ?
If you have an effective counterpoint, let's hear it.
A lot less bluster please. A little more substance please.
You [b]are missing something. You're missing what you don't want to believe yet is WRITTEN. You only want a portion of what is written.
You're myo ...[text shortened]... tion span. It is not that KM believes something extra. It is that you do not believe enough.[/b]
ignore mine and give new ones which I rebut and you ignore, too. It's kind of like a waltz.
1. You say something that doesn't support your position.
2. I show that it doesn't.
3. You ignore it.
Repeat.
Take the log out of your eye.
Nemesio
27 Oct 08
Originally posted by NemesioBut I asked a pertinent question in my rebuttal.
You haven't rebutted a single interpretation of mine. I've addressed all of yours. All you do is
ignore mine and give new ones which I rebut and you ignore, too. It's kind of like a waltz.
1. You say something that doesn't support your position.
2. I show that it doesn't.
3. You ignore it.
Repeat.
Take the log out of your eye.
Nemesio
Epi claims that Jesus said he is equal to God.
He extrapolates that to mean that Jesus IS God.
(No Explanation given as to why).
I then pointed out that Christ himself said that only God knows when the kingdom will come. How can Christ be God and God be Christ if one knows something the other does not.
They have to be 2 separate entities.
27 Oct 08
Originally posted by PinkFloydThe Bible says when a man and a woman marry they shall be one flesh. Are they are one and the same or are we able to clearly distinguish the 2 people, H & W, two separate entities even though they are ONE ?
Jesus said "I and the Father are one." To me, that means they are equivelant entities.
27 Oct 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999That's a good point, but I don't equate "one" with "one flesh" (though I see how one might). I just happen to think one statement was figurative and one literal.
The Bible says when a man and a woman marry they shall be one flesh. Are they are one and the same or are we able to clearly distinguish the 2 people, H & W, two separate entities even though they are ONE ?
27 Oct 08
2 edits
Originally posted by PinkFloydWell darling, here is a batch of verses starting with yours. Oneness is a term describing the characteristic of being OF ONE PURPOSE AND MIND. That is they think alike. The disciples ARE ONE. The churches Paul started ARE ONE. In addition Greek word for ONE (heis) is the same for all the following passages. Tell me honey, how do you determine which is literal and which is figurative ?
That's a good point, but I don't equate "one" with "one flesh" (though I see how one might). I just happen to think one statement was figurative and one literal.
JOH 10:30 I and my Father ARE ONE.
JOH 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we ARE ONE:
RO 12:5 So we, being many, ARE ONE body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
1CO 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, ARE ONE body: so also is Christ.
(Like my new honey-coated language? ... 😀)
27 Oct 08
Originally posted by PinkFloydBy that logic, then all believers are (to become) God for Jesus also said:
Jesus said "I and the Father are one." To me, that means they are equivelant entities.
I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through
their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and
I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that
you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they
may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be
brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent
me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. (St John 17:20-23)
And later: 'I made known to them your name and I will make it known,
that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in them.'
(Verse 26)
So, by your reasoning, all believers are equivalent entities.
Naturally, this is not the case, even though the language in this chapter
is identical to the passage from chapter 10 you cited. So what
could it mean?
In means that the love of God perfected in Jesus brought Him into complete
communion with God, a goal He wanted for all believers. That interpretation
is consistent for both chapter 10 and 17.
Furthermore, you've not addressed making semantic sense of the sections
in which Jesus makes a distinction between Himself and God. You're
just ignoring them.
Nemesio
27 Oct 08
Originally posted by Rajk999Good for you. My rebuke was not directed at you, but Jaywill.
But I asked a pertinent question in my rebuttal.
Epi claims that Jesus said he is equal to God.
He extrapolates that to mean that Jesus IS God.
(No Explanation given as to why).
I then pointed out that Christ himself said that only God knows when the kingdom will come. How can Christ be God and God be Christ if one knows something the other does not.
They have to be 2 separate entities.
Nemesio
27 Oct 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999Yes I do get it.
I have 2 boxes of grapes that are both 10 lbs
They are EQUAL in weight, height, length, volume. colour, texture ... whatever.
BUT THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO ...[text shortened]... TE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
THEY ARE STILL TWO SEPARATE BOXES
Get it ?
But with the God things are unusual.
For example John 1:1,14.
And we know this by experience. When we touched the Holy Spirit within we definitely contacted Jesus the Son and the Father.
27 Oct 08
Originally posted by jaywillOh ... the experiencial thing !
Yes I do get it.
But with the God things are unusual.
For example [b] John 1:1,14.
And we know this by experience. When we touched the Holy Spirit within we definitely contacted Jesus the Son and the Father.[/b]
So we are back to square 1.
Its not doctrinal. Its your feeling!
27 Oct 08
Originally posted by Nemesio===================================
By that logic, then all believers are (to become) God for Jesus also said:
[i]I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through
their word, [b]so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and
I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that
you sent me. And I have given them the glory you g ...[text shortened]... h Jesus makes a distinction between Himself and God. You're
just ignoring them.
Nemesio[/b]
By that logic, then all believers are (to become) God for Jesus also said:
=====================================
I agree.
Collectively and corporately the New Jerusalem is God manifest in a very large group of people for eternity.
Why do you think She is called "the Bride" and "the Wife" of the Lamb, the Redeeming God-man?
====================================
I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through
their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and
I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that
you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they
may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be
brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent
me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. (St John 17:20-23)
=============================================
I agree - "that they may be perfected into one" is what the Lord prayed. And that prayer must be answered.
==========================================
And later: 'I made known to them your name and I will make it known,
that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in them.'
(Verse 26)
==========================================
Exactly.
Welcome to the full Gospel of Jesus Christ.
=======================================
So, by your reasoning, all believers are equivalent entities.
Naturally, this is not the case, even though the language in this chapter
is identical to the passage from chapter 10 you cited. So what
could it mean?
======================================
I will not answer fo PinkFLoyd. But the deification of the belivers to be God manifest in the flesh is our full salvation.
There are non-communicable attributes which are not shared by the saved.
They are never to become an object of worship, or creators of universes. They are never to become oniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent.
I have my father's life. But I do not have my father's unique headship over his family.
The Head is Christ the Godman. The Body is His church, the New Jerusalem which is to be perfected into one.
Welcome to the full Gospel of God.
===============================
In means that the love of God perfected in Jesus brought Him into complete
communion with God, a goal He wanted for all believers. That interpretation
is consistent for both chapter 10 and 17.
========================================
Yes He did. He was God in eternity past. Yet He became a man and went through a process.
The believers go through much of the same process.
As long as you understand that only the communicable attributes of God are passed on to the saved, you are beginning to see what salvation really entails.
It is not simply to be transported off to a happy place called Heaven. It is to be regenerated, sanctified, transformed, conformed, built up in love, resurrected, and glorified into a corporated expression of the Triune God.
Have you not read Romans 8:29?
Because those whom He foreknew He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers."
This means to be a continuation of God manifest in the flesh.
But the believers do not become the Head of this entity. Christ has the headship and the Godhead. The saved become the Body of this entity.