20 Oct 08
2 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobie==================================
jaywill, you had better to better than that if you are gonna convince some, its very airy fairy and lacks real substance, i know, try to explain colossians chapter 1:15, and how it impacts you understanding of the trinity.
jaywill, you had better to better than that if you are gonna convince some, its very airy fairy and lacks real substance, i know, try to explain colossians chapter 1:15, and how it impacts you understanding of the trinity.
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We are writing posts here. I cannot write a book here.
And if you have a problem you should try to succintly discribe what your problem is with what I wrote.
And one other thing. I think you and each of us need to keep clear who we are addressing. With multiple submissions from different people it can get confused.
That goes for me also.
John 1:1,14 should really be enough to prove to the sincere seeker that Christ is God as well as the born man.
When you look at various things that Jesus spoke in the Gospels, expecially the Gospel of John, they only confirm WHY John wrote his prologue. Jesus is God/man.
20 Oct 08
Originally posted by knightmeisteryes, it doesn't state that he is the invisible god, only that he is the image, or likeness of the invisible God, like you are not your parents, only bearing a similar resemblance to them.
it states that , concerning Christ, ' he IS the image of the invisible god,'
Adam and eve also having been MADE IN gods image, in that they possess certain qualities that god himself possesses,
-------------------------------rob---------------
Spot the difference?
20 Oct 08
Originally posted by jaywillanswer the question about colossians then we can talk.
[b]==================================
jaywill, you had better to better than that if you are gonna convince some, its very airy fairy and lacks real substance, i know, try to explain colossians chapter 1:15, and how it impacts you understanding of the trinity.
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We are writing posts here. I cannot write ...[text shortened]... expecially the Gospel of John, they only confirm WHY John wrote His prologue. Jesus is God/man.[/b]
20 Oct 08
Originally posted by jaywillsorry perhaps you could reiterate colossians chapter 1 verse 15 for us, you know just so that all may recognize the erroneous content of your whacky doctrine. oh, why wait, ill do it for you, it reads, concerning Christ, ' He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation,'. what does this infer, other than Christ was a direct creation, yes it does state creation, just so you cannot glibly overlook this point, IT STATES THAT CHRIST WAS A CREATED BEING, CREATED! CREATED BY GOD, as a spiritual being, before he took on a role as a messianic human. therefore he had a beginning, therefore he cannot conceivably be god, because as i have already stated and given references for, God has always existed.
Robert,
What post has "the question" about Colossians ?
jaywill
20 Oct 08
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobie========================================
sorry perhaps you could reiterate colossians chapter 1 verse 15 for us, you know just so that all may recognize the erroneous content of your whacky doctrine. oh, why wait, ill do it for you, it reads, concerning Christ, ' He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation,'. what does this infer, other than Christ was a direct creat ...[text shortened]... bly be god, because as i have already stated and given references for, God has always existed.
sorry perhaps you could reiterate colossians chapter 1 verse 15 for us,
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In this discussion I have NOT YET mentioned Colossians 1:15. So this would not be a reiteration as far as I am concerned.
Try not to confuse who is speaking.
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you know just so that all may recognize the erroneous content of your whacky doctrine. oh, why wait, ill do it for you, it reads, concerning Christ, ' He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation,'. what does this infer, other than Christ was a direct creation,
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I (if not someone else participating) have ALREADY noted that because Christ is a man He is necessarily part of the creation of God.
I refered to Genesis 1:27 to prove that God created man. So if Christ is a man He is the creation of God as well as the Creator. Because, I wrote, that all things came into being through the Word, the God who became flesh (See John 1:1 and 14).
Now the question here with Col. 1:15 is this:
Does Col 1:15 mean as Arius argued centries ago, that Christ is the FIRST thing that God created ?
The answer is NO. Colossians 1:15 does not mean that before God created any other item He first created Christ.
Colossians 1:15 means that in all the things created in the universe the MAN Jesus Christ has PREEMINENCE. That is that He might have the the First Place among ALL the created things of God. This is why Paul ends his discription of Christ's attributes by saying - " that He [Christ] might have the first place in all things." (1:18)
Jesus as a man was born long after God created the heavens and the earth and humanity. So Jesus was certainly not, timewise, the first created item in all of God's creation.
God created Adam and Eve before Jesus was conceived and born in Mary's womb in His humanity. But could it mean that Christ in His divinity was the first created creature of God? This is what Arius argued. The answer is no. In His divinity He is uncreated.
Christ as God is the Creator. However, as man, sharing in created blood and flesh (See Hebrews 2:14a), He is part of the creation.
(The Word was with God and the Word WAS God) says John. Christ in His divinity is no more created then God was created. God always was and always will be. So the Word being God Himself was never created in His divinity.
Now in His incarnation the Son of God, the Word who IS God partook of blood and flesh (Hebrews 2:14). Blood and flesh are items of the creation of God, without any possible dispute.
"Firstborn of all creation" refers to Christ's preeminence in all creation, because from this verse through v. 18 the apostle stresses that the first place that Christ has in all things.
In short, God is before all. When God became incarnated in flesh and blood He rendered that created man the Firstborn of all creation. Not timewise does it speak. But priority wise it speaks.
Incidently, Christ as the beginning of the creation of God in Revelation 3:14 speaks of something a little different. There it means that in resurrection, as the first man resurrected into the glorious expression of the death overcoming man, Christ is the beginning of the new creation.
Revelation 3:14 confirms Colossians 1:18
"And He [Christ] is the HEad of the Body, the church; He is THE BEGINNING, the Firstborn from the dead, that He Himself might have first place in all things." (Col., 1:18 my emphasis)
Because of Who He is, in both the old creation and in the church the new creation Christ has the first place. He is preeminent in all things. He is the Firstborn of all creation and He is the Firstborn from among the dead.
Firstborn of all creation in Col. 1:15 should therefore mean He has the top most and preeminent position among all things created by God, regardless of WHEN they were created.
20 Oct 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterthankyou for your honesty, now we have our first real admittance, Christ is distinct entity from the father, it took a little time, but its significant never the less, now where in scripture does it state that Christ is an, 1.'eternal', son, that he is the same in, '2. essence and 3.substance', to the father, as to the part about being co equal, that is easily refutable, so please do tell!
The trinity does allow for the idea that Christ is a distinct being. So what's your problem? God the eternal father , gives birth to the eternal son who is co-equal in essence and substance to the Father. Just as my Son is co-equal in essence to me. I am not of a higher order as a being just because I am his father am I?
The trinity does not say th ...[text shortened]... e great I AM). They went to stone him and there is no indication he tries to correct them.
20 Oct 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieBoy o boy ... youre in big trouble ... now you going to see some long posts 😀 that makes very little sense.
thankyou for your honesty, now we have our first real admittance, Christ is distinct entity from the father, it took a little time, but its significant never the less, now where in scripture does it state that Christ is an, 1.'eternal', son, that he is the same in, '2. essence and 3.substance', to the father, as to the part about being co equal, that is easily refutable, so please do tell!
20 Oct 08
2 edits
Robert,
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yes it does state creation, just so you cannot glibly overlook this point, IT STATES THAT CHRIST WAS A CREATED BEING, CREATED!
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For Him to become a man necessarily means that God clothed Himself in His own creation. For man is a created item.
But God is uncreated.
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CREATED BY GOD, as a spiritual being, before he took on a role as a messianic human.
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No this cannot be the creation of a spiritual being. The Word WAS GOD (John 1:1). And the Word became flesh. So God became flesh in incarnation.
The Bible never says that the Word Who was God was created.
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therefore he had a beginning, therefore he cannot conceivably be god, because as i have already stated and given references for, God has always existed.
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John's Gospel would negate this.
And Isaiah 9:6 says that the "Son ... given" is not the temprary Father or the created Father but Eternal Father
So the Son is the Eternal Father, uncreated from eternity the source of all things which have come into being.
He took on flesh and blood in incarnation. He clothed the uncreated and eternal in the creation. And He remains in eternity ever a man - a God/man.
jaywill
20 Oct 08
2 edits
Robert s arguing that Christ as a spiritual being was created.
But if that is so then God was created also because the Word was God (John 1:1).
But we should know that the eternal God was never created. So the Word that was with God and was God was never created.
But when the Word became flesh (John 1:14) the uncreated God took upon Himself the creation. Flesh and blood are items of God's creation.
But as an eternal spiritual one with divinity the Word was never created. And this is why the prophet Isaiah would write that the Son given is the Eternal Father.
20 Oct 08
Originally posted by jaywillsorry Jaywill im not buying any of that, you are speaking of your own originality and inferring whence there is nothing to infer, that Christ is quite clearly the first born, i.e. the first direct creation by god is not only evident from the context of colossians but is also evident in the term, only begotten son, only thing directly created by god, and he could not have been created as a man prior to Adam, because he was the first man created, therefore your insistence that this is addressed to Jesus the man is simply false, nor can you infer it from the text, nor does it refer to his preeminence, the text clearly states that every thing, eminence is not a physical thing is it? things visible and invisible, things in heaven and on earth, this once again is inferring whence there is no grounds to believe otherwise than what is stated in scripture.
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sorry perhaps you could reiterate colossians chapter 1 verse 15 for us,
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In this discussion I have NOT YET mentioned Colossians 1:15. So this would not be a reiteration as far as I am concerned.
Try not to confuse who is speaking.
================== ...[text shortened]... ent position among all things created by God, regardless of WHEN they were created.
it is nothing more than attempt to shoehorn the text to fit the doctrine, rather than honestly looking at the text in an objective manner.
20 Oct 08
Originally posted by jaywillno the word was 'a god', or a divine being as some translators render it, he WAS NOT,IS NOT, NEVER HAS BEEN, NOR EVER WILL BE ALMIGHTY GOD!!!!
Robert s arguing that Christ as a spiritual being was created.
But if that is so then God was created also because the Word was God (John 1:1).
But we should know that the eternal God was never created. So the Word that was with God and was God was never created.
But when the Word became flesh (JOhn 1:14) the uncreated God took upon Himself the c ...[text shortened]... eated. And this is why the prophet Isaiah would write that the Son given is the Eternal Father.
20 Oct 08
Originally posted by Rajk999Rajk999 has a very short attention span.
Boy o boy ... youre in big trouble ... now you going to see some long posts 😀 that makes very little sense.
He likes it that way. It assists him in ignoring truths in the Bible that require some time to develop.
He hides his errors and twistings behind a short attention span that wants everything to be explained in 25 words or less.