Originally posted by robbie carrobie===================================
ok, the story so far, jaywill tried to convince us that isaiah 9:6 is with reference to God Almighty, even though the Hebrew word for almighty was not used in the verse, it is still not established whether he thinks this verse is speaking about the father or the son, or both, because quite clearly god cannot be born, having always existed. Then we g efforts to prove a doctrine that is not only non biblical but essentially pagan in origin.
ok, the story so far, jaywill tried to convince us that isaiah 9:6 is with reference to God Almighty, even though the Hebrew word for almighty was not used in the verse,
=====================================
The story is that as an act of sheer willful ignorance you refuse to recognize that both phrases "God Almighty" and "the Mighty God refer to Yahweh - Jehovah God.
Compare Exodus 6:2 and Jeremiah 32:18
Let us use the 1901 American Standard published by none other than the Watchtower Society (Who deny that Jesus is Jehovah).
"And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am Jehovah: and I appeared unto Abraham, unto, and unto Jacob as God Almighty" (Exodus 6:2)
"... the great, the mighty God, Jehovah of hosts is his name ..." (Jeremiah 32:18)
So the Almighty God = Jehovah. And the Mighty God also = Jehovah. So the child born unto us in Isaiah 9:6 is Jehovah the Mighty God and the Almighty God become a man.
Of course this is reinforced by the fact that His name shall also be called Eternal Father. He is not a lesser God but the very Eternal Father.
Who is this Eternal Father ? He is also Jehovah the one Divine and Eternal Father of the Bible and especially of Isaiah's whole book:
"For You are our Father, Since Abraham does not know us, And Isreal does not acknolwedge us. You, Jehovah, are our Father, Our Redeemer from of old is Your name." (Isaiah 63:16)
"But now, Jehovah, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You, our Potter; And all of us are the work of Your hands." (Isaiah 64:8).
"Therefore, if I am a Father, where is My honor ? And if I am the Lord, where is My fear? says Jehovah of hosts to you, O priests who despise My name. " (Malachi 1:6)
This Eternal Father is the same Father of the Triune God. This is the one Divine and Eternal Father of the Father - Son - and Holy Spirit.
Whether you like it or not Isaiah 9:6 says that the Son given shall be called Eternal Father. The Son is God. And it is seen why the ancient Christians had to arrive at this phrase "Trinity" in order to defend against attacks against the Person of Christ.
====================================
it is still not established whether he thinks this verse is speaking about the father or the son, or both, because quite clearly god cannot be born, having always existed.
====================================
The child born and the Son given has His first name as "Wonderful Counselor". The Hebrew word there of "Wonderful" is peleh. This word takes on these meanings:
incomprehensible,
something unusual,
something unheard of,
extraordinary,
hard to understand,
beyond one's powers,
too difficult,
We see this word used in such passages as:
Gen. 18:14 - "Is anything too hard [peleh] for the Lord?"
Psalm 139:6 - "Such knowledge is too wonderful [peleh] for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."
Judges 13:18 - "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is Wonderful [peleh]"
That the born child is the Mighty God; that the Son given is the Eternal Father, is knowledge too high for us. We cannot attain it. It is incomprehensible to human beings. It is Wonderful. It is extraordinary and beyond our powers to understand.
It is not beyond our powers to believe. And that is precisely what the Bible commands us to do.
====================================
Then we get an admittance from Knightmeister after a long ...
=======================================
I will let Knightmeister use his approach. And I will use my approach.
I am dealing chiefly with your statements to me, jaywill, (mostly).
=======================================
laughable attempt to try to show that Christ, by saying that he had existed before Abraham was God almighty, because it states in their translation 'i am',
=========================================
I didn't see the Jews laughing. I saw them pick up stones to execute this Man before them for what they considered a blasphemous infringment of the law of Moses.
Latter they make it clear that they attempted to stone Him because He being a man made Himself to be God Himself.
"The Jews answered Him, We are not stoning you for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a man, are making Yourself God." (John 10:33)
Besides this Jesus said that He was with the Father before not only Abraham came into being but before the world itself came into being:
"And now, glorify Me along with YOurself, Father, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." (John 17:5)
But Robert will argue, perhaps, that this does not mean that Christ is the Eternal and uncreated God Almighty. Could it mean that Jesus was the first creature God created ?
I think not. Both Jehovah God and Christ in the New Testament declare "I am the First and the Last".
Compare:
Isaiah 48:12 - "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, whom I called; I am He; I am the First also the Last."
Isaiah 44:5 - "Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God."
Revelation 21:13 - Behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
And if there is any further doubt, the First and the Last is Almighy God in Revelation:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8)
Jesus places His right hand upon the disciple John in Revelation and said "Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Revelation 1:8)
Robert has no case. And if anyone should chuckle it is those of us who recognize Robert's hopeless attempts to twist and dance around the truth of the word of God.
==============================
therefore anyone in scripture who can affirm that 'they are', must be god almighty, don't laugh, this is what they are saying. one can only but wonder at what attempts they will think of next in their efforts to prove a doctrine that is not only non biblical but essentially pagan in origin.
==================================
The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was saying. And that is why they wanted to stone Him for making Himself to be God standing there before them as a man.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneHowever, you don't qualify your statements, even though this has been pointed out to you repeatedly. This shows you a knowing and willing liar. ----------------ToO--------------------
Rationalizations aside, you are still a liar.
If you want to get out of a hole, stop digging.
If you are making an assumption, then qualify it as such. However, you don't qualify your statements, even though this has been pointed out to you repeatedly. This shows you a knowing and willing liar.
Luke 6:46
"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and no ...[text shortened]... I tell you?"
You should consider following the teachings of Jesus instead of your ego.
Surely this statement itself is an unqulaified statement because you don't know for sure that I am a liar and are unable to demonstrate that I am by declaring your belief in God. Therefore , i could say you were a knowing liar , but I won't because that would be harsh.
I think you are making an assessment about me and vice versa , nothing wrong with that. My assessment is that you don't believe in God and I will state it confidently , just as you also sate what you believe confidently.
Of course you are free to clarify the whole thing any time you want. If you do we will all see who is deceiving who.
Robert,
Who is the First and the Last then ?
Jesus places His right hand upon the disciple John in Revelation and said "Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Revelation 1:8)
Jehovah God in the Old Testament declares that He is the First and the Last and that besides Him "there IS NO GOD"
Isaiah 44:5 - "Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God."
Revelation 21:13 - Behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
The First and the Last is Almighy God in Revelation:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8)
Originally posted by jaywilllol, jaywill, listen my dear friend, how can almighty god be born, if he has always existed, it doesnt make sense? and jaywill there are lost of people who deny that Christ was almighty god, 1.3 billion Muslims for example,
[b]===================================
ok, the story so far, jaywill tried to convince us that isaiah 9:6 is with reference to God Almighty, even though the Hebrew word for almighty was not used in the verse,
=====================================
The story is that as an act of sheer willful ignorance you refuse to recognize that both[/b to be God standing there before them as a man.
Originally posted by jaywillYoure a hopeless case Jaywill. You latch on to one verse which appears to be supporting your doctrine when there are
[b]===================================
ok, the story so far, jaywill tried to convince us that isaiah 9:6 is with reference to God Almighty, even though the Hebrew word for almighty was not used in the verse,
=====================================
The story is that as an act of sheer willful ignorance you refuse to recognize that both[/b to be God standing there before them as a man.[/b]
- dozens of verses that say directly Christ and God are separate and
- dozens of events that make Christ and God being one and the same entity an impossibility.
God sent His Son Jesus to die for our sins. John 3 : 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
He did not send Himself. God and Jesus are TWO SEPARATE AND DISTINCT BEINGS. They have one common purpose but they exist independently. The Holy Spirit is the power of God which has been given to certain people. Again this is separate and distinct.
Its the simple verses like this one in John 3, make your long convoluted analysis and complicated interpretations look like BS to the more informed readers. I think part of your problem is that you believe the more intricate the analysis the more accurate it is .... it has to be ... right ? .... 😀
Originally posted by knightmeisterA typically irrational KM response.
However, you don't qualify your statements, even though this has been pointed out to you repeatedly. This shows you a knowing and willing liar. ----------------ToO--------------------
Surely this statement itself is an unqulaified statement because you don't know for sure that I am a liar and are unable to demonstrate that I am by declaring your bel o clarify the whole thing any time you want. If you do we will all see who is deceiving who.
You admitted in your previous post that you were making an assumption. You knew you were making an assumption, but presented it as fact. This makes it a lie. This shows you a knowing and willing liar.
As usual, certain concepts are beyond you.
Originally posted by Rajk999===================================
Youre a hopeless case Jaywill. You latch on to one verse which appears to be supporting your doctrine when there are
- dozens of verses that say directly Christ and God are separate and
- dozens of events that make Christ and God being one and the same entity an impossibility.
God sent His Son Jesus to die for our sins. [i]John 3 : 16 For God so ...[text shortened]... ve the more intricate the analysis the more accurate it is .... it has to be ... right ? .... 😀
He did not send Himself. God and Jesus are TWO SEPARATE AND DISTINCT BEINGS. They have one common purpose but they exist independently. The Holy Spirit is the power of God which has been given to certain people. Again this is separate and distinct.
=======================================
Distinct, yes. Seperate, no.
When I return I will show you that God can send Himself.
I notice that you had nothing to say about "The First and the Last" being both Jehovah and Jesus.
==================================
Jesus places His right hand upon the disciple John in Revelation and said "Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Revelation 1:8)
Jehovah God in the Old Testament declares that He is the First and the Last and that besides Him "there IS NO GOD"
Isaiah 44:5 - "Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God."
Revelation 21:13 - Behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
The First and the Last is Almighy God in Revelation:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8)
=====================================
ok, now you guys are in for it, consulting my rather excellent Hebrew to English interlinear Bible (three volumes), printed in the united states of America, published by baker book house company and edited by Jay.P.Green S.r, (its actually Jay wills uncle) i find the following of interest to our discussion,
at exodus 6:3 it states and i quote, and i appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty and my name Jehovah i never made myself known to them etc etc etc. Now dear friends, notice the phrase with respect to God, God Almighty, used exclusively with respect to the father, now jaywill has correctly stated that God is also described as mighty god elsewhere, trying in earnest to link the two so that he can state that it corresponds to the scripture in Isaiah 9:6, however, the scripture in Isaiah, with reference to the messiah, does not say almighty, it simply says, and i quote, ' for to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the princely power shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called, wonderful, counselor, the mighty God', please take note of this last phrase, the mighty God, it is different to almighty God, because a different Hebrew word has been used, now if we are to take jaywills reasoning seriously then we must conclude that where it states Almighty God, it also means mighty god, however we have already established that the term almighty is used exclusively with reference to the most high himself, not to Christ, nor any other created being, if this is not the case, perhaps the trinitarians can show us where the specific term Almighty God is used with reference to any other being other than God himself, how could the two be synonymous? conclusion they are not, mighty God is a quality, almighty god is a title used exclusively for God himself!
Please look at these two pasages: [/b]
"And when I saw Him, ...[ the Son of Man in Rev. 1:13 ] I fell at His feet as dead; and He placed His right hand on me, saying, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Revelation 1:8)
The Son of Man declares that He is "the First and the Last"
But Almighty God declares in the very same chapter in verse 8 that He is " the Alpha and the Omega."
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:8)
The phrase "the Alpha and the Omega" is simply another way of saying "the First and the Last."
Alpha is the first letter in the Greek alphabet. Omega is the last letter in the Greek alphabet. By saying He is the Alpha and the Omega He indicates that He is the First and the Last.
Does Robert think that there are two Firsts and Lasts ?
Does Robert think that the Son of Man is another First and Last but God Almighty is the primary First and Last ? This does not make sense that after the Alpha there would be the First and that after the Omega there would be the Last.
Alpha = the First. Omega = the Last.
The Almighty has been incarnated in the Son of Man.
Jehovah God in the Old Testament declares that He is the First and the Last and that besides Him "there IS NO GOD"
Isaiah 44:5 - "Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God."
It is impossible then that the Bible is saying that Jehovah God is one First and Last and that Christ is another lesser God who is another First and Last.
Revelation 21:13 - Behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
The First and the Last is the Alpha and the Omega. God Almighty has been incarnated as the Son of Man.
Now Robert appealed to this passage to salvage a concept that there could be many gods in the Bible.
"For even if there are many so-caled gods, either in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords." (1 Cor. 8:5)
"Ha, ha ... See? The Bible says that there are many gods." So abusers of this passage will tell us. I consider this a bit underhanded and dishonest.
Now let us look at what they usually do not point out. Here is the passage in context with my emphasis added:
"Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world AND THAT THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE. (v.4)
For even as there are SO-CALLED gods, either in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, (v.5)
YET TO US [ us Christian disciples ] there is ONE GOD, the Father, out from whom are all things, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through Him." (v.6.)
In the passage which Robert uses to point out the possibility of more than one God, ie. a Mighty God and an Almighty God, the Apostle teaches that there are "so-called gods" many. These other beings are not God.
The evil angels and the demons to whom the nations sacrificed to who hovered behind thier idols were these "so-called gods" which were many.
But to Paul's audience, to the Christian church, "there is no God but one".
Is Robert one of the "us" to whom Paul is speaking. To "us" believers in Christ there is no God but one. This is based also upon the utterances of God in the Old Testament:
" ... there is no God besides Me. I am Jehovah and there is no one else ..." (Isaiah 45:6)
" Turn to Me and be saved, All the ends of the earth, For I am God and there is no one else." (Isa. 45:22)
"For thus says Jehovah, who created tje jeavens - He is God Who formed the earth and made it; He formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah and there is no one else." (See Isa 45:18)
"Thus says Jehovah ... I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (See Isa. 44:6).
"And you are My witnesses, Is there a God besides Me ? Or is there any [other] Rock I do not know of any." (Isa. 44:8)
To the Jew and to the Christian there is no God but one God. And this is what Paul teaches in the passage that Robert twists to try to say that there could be many gods.
He needs many gods in order to make Jesus Christ a lesser God to Jehovah God. This is the only hope of changing the meaning of John 1:1 that "the Word was with God, and the Word was God".
Like Arius he must teach of two Gods. This is why he tries to teach that the Mighty God in Isaiah 9:6 is another God besides the Almighty God of Exodus 6:2. I have already proven that Jehovah God is ALSO called the Mighty God in a number of other passages in the Old Testament.
Who is the speaker in Revelation 22:12 ?
Revelation 21:13 - Behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
The Speaker says "Behold, I come ..." in 22:12. And in 20 John responds to Christ's promise to come. "Yes, I come quickly. Amen. Come, Lord Jesus" (22:20)
The Lord Jesus Who is coming quickly is the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. He is God Almighty incarnated as a man.
Well then did Isaiah the prophet tell us that the child born is the Mighty God and the Son given is the Eternal Father.
Originally posted by jaywillno Jaywill, you are not evading this one, show us, in scripture, with references, where it is that the term Almighty God is used of anyone other than God himself, or admit, publicly that the two terms, Almighty God and Mighty god are not synonymous and your attempt to marry the two has proved futile and is erroneous and that Christ and God are completely separate entities!!
Please look at these two pasages:
"And when I saw Him, ...[ the Son of Man in Rev. 1:13 ] I fell at His feet as dead; and He placed His right hand on me, saying, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Revelation 1:8) [/b ...[text shortened]... God and the Son given is the Eternal Father.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie====================================
no Jaywill, you are not evading this one, show us, in scripture, with references, where it is that the term Almighty God is used of anyone other than God himself, or admit, publicly that the two terms, Almighty God and Mighty god are not synonymous and your attempt to marry the two has proved futile and is erroneous and that Christ and God are completely separate entities!!
no Jaywill, you are not evading this one, show us, in scripture, with references, where it is that the term Almighty God is used of anyone other than God himself, or admit, publicly that the two terms, Almighty God and Mighty god are not synonymous and your attempt to marry the two has proved futile and is erroneous and that Christ and God are completely separate entities!!
=========================================
It is not a matter of me evading. It is a matter of it not being necessary.
How many names for God are there in the OT ? Just to name a few -
Jehovah - 'osenu - "Jehovah our Maker (Psa. 95:6)
Jehovah -jireh - "Jehovah will provide," or "Jehovah will see [to it] " Gen. 22:14)
Jehovah - ropheka - "Jehovah who heals you" - (Exo. 15:26)
Jehovah - nissi - "Jehovah is my banner" (Exo. 17:15)
Jehovah - meqaddishkem - "Jehovah who sanctified you" (Exo. 31:13; Lev.20:8)
Jehovah - shalom - "Jehovah is peace" (Judges 6:24)
Jehovah - ro'i - "Jehovah is my Shepherd" (Psa. 23:1)
Jehovah-tsidqenu - "Jehovah our righteousness"
Jehovah - tsebaot, or Jehovah-saboath - "Jehovah of hosts" (1 Sam 11:3; Jer.2:19)
I feel that I do not have to go through one by one, every name that God is called in the Old Testament and specifically show that Jesus was called the same name.
I rest my case in proving that Jehovah is called both the Mighty God and the Almighty God.
I rest my case proving that both the Almighty and the Son of Man say that the Alpha and Omega - the First and the Last applies to Himself.
You are simply moving the goal post around.
Originally posted by jaywillJaywill, you have done nothing of the sort, where is the term the Almighty God applied to anyone other than God himself, the answer my dear friend, is not blowing in the wind, the answer is in scripture, NOWHERE, and i thank the inspired writers for making it so, and until you can prove otherwise with Biblical references i will have nothing to do with this doctrine, historically it is pagan, in fundamentals it is confusing and essentially it leads to disputes which the inspired writer warns us against, 1 Tim 6:4,5 just one reference from the entire bible Jaywill, just one where Christ is termed the Almighty, just one and i will embrace the doctrine, otherwise i have no alternative but to admonish you, i know, discipline is not easy at first, but it works out what is righteous in the end, David himself stated that if the righteous one should strike him, it would be like honey to his lips!
[b]====================================
no Jaywill, you are not evading this one, show us, in scripture, with references, where it is that the term Almighty God is used of anyone other than God himself, or admit, publicly that the two terms, Almighty God and Mighty god are not synonymous and your attempt to marry the two has proved futile and is erroneous a ...[text shortened]... e Last applies to Himself.
You are simply moving the goal post around.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAs I said, there are many names for God in the OT. I do not have to go thorugh them all to show that each and every title was specifically applied to Jesus.
Jaywill, you have done nothing of the sort, where is the term the Almighty God applied to anyone other than God himself, the answer my dear friend, is not blowing in the wind, the answer is in scripture, NOWHERE, and i thank the inspired writers for making it so, and until you can prove otherwise with Biblical references i will have nothing to do wit ...[text shortened]... himself stated that if the righteous one should strike him, it would be like honey to his lips!
But one thing you do not understand is that if Jesus is not God incarnate then God has not accomplished His eternal purpose. For His eternal purpose is to manifest Himself in humanity. It is His very reason for creating the universe that God would be manifest in man.
Jesus is God become a man for a purpose. And that purpose is that man might be made God in life, nature, and expression yet not in His headship or Godhead.
God created the universe for the express purpose of becoming man and man becoming God. He desires that there would be a mingling of God and man. He desires that there would be an organic union of God and man. He desires that there would be a incorporation of divinity into humanity.
This Paul spoke of the great mystery of godliness - God manifest in the flesh:
"And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen of angels,
Preached among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory." (1 Timothy 3:16)
Jesus Christ is the prototype of God's operation to produce "He [God] manifest in the flesh".
And His church as the Body of Christ is the continuation of His operation of "He [God] manifest in the flesh".
Only in some uncommunicable aspects will the saved in the church be unlike Jesus Christ the God-man in eternity:
We who receive His life will not be an object of worship, God and Christ are.
We who receive His life will not be a Creator of universes as God and Christ are.
Concerning Christ the Word become flesh, John wrote "He [Christ] was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him." (John 1:10)
So Jesus Christ is the Creator of the world as the Word Who was God.
We who receive His life will not be omnipresent, omnipotent, or omniscient.
In these non-communicable attributes of God we will not share. But in life and nature and expression the saved by Jesus Christ will be "like Him" (1 John 3:2)
So God became a man so that man might become God in life nature and expression, but not in the Godhead.
God did not become a man merely that we may hold that man up as an opbject of worship. We who believe in Him do indeed worship Jesus as God, as the Son of God. But the purpose of the Triune God is to dispense the life of Christ into us that we may become like Him.
Understanding God's eternal plan might help many uunderstand why God became a man in a fuller way. He is not only our Lord and Savior. He is our Life.
So I move on. I am restful and satisfied that I have proved that Jehovah the Almighty is Jesus. You are free to disbelieve that if you wish.
Originally posted by jaywillNot this nonsense again !
....God has not accomplished His eternal purpose. For His eternal purpose is to manifest Himself in humanity. It is His very reason for creating the universe that God would be manifest in man....
God needs man to accomplish His eternal purpose?
Originally posted by Rajk999Yes. God needs man to accomplish His eternal purpose.
Not this nonsense again !
God needs man to accomplish His eternal purpose?
And man needs time and space to exist. Man needs a univese. So for the sake of the existence of man God created the heavens and the earth.
Then in the course of time God Himself became a man that He might make man and God united to be one.