1. Standard memberchaney3
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    27 Sep '15 05:16
    If a Christian believes in Jesus Christ, and makes his/her best effort to live a life that God/Jesus would appreciate, is that good enough?? Or, is a person required to live a perfect, sin free life once they are born again?

    The debate seems to revolve around the 'works' issue. If a person believes in Jesus, and decides to make every effort to live like Jesus, this person would still fall very, very short. However, it seems from scripture, that what God is seeking is the EFFORT. Not the result, but...the effort.

    Why do some posters believe that once a person becomes 'born again', that a sin-free life will follow? We will all sin.....forever. Our works have already been described as 'filthy rags', according to God. Why the obsession with works??

    We should try to live clean, Jesus like lives, but.....we will fail. It is only through Salvation from the Crucifixion of Jesus that we are saved....not by what we decide to do.
  2. Account suspended
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    27 Sep '15 09:272 edits
    Originally posted by chaney3
    If a Christian believes in Jesus Christ, and makes his/her best effort to live a life that God/Jesus would appreciate, is that good enough?? Or, is a person required to live a perfect, sin free life once they are born again?

    The debate seems to revolve around the 'works' issue. If a person believes in Jesus, and decides to make every effort to live like ...[text shortened]... hrough Salvation from the Crucifixion of Jesus that we are saved....not by what we decide to do.
    Its a kind of false dichotomy.

    For example there is no works verse faith argument, its like saying in chess that strategy verse tactics is the way to win. This is simply not possible because there is a symbiotic relationship between strategy and tactics the same as there is a symbiotic relationship between faith and works. The two are dependent on one another and this is how to understand the relationship between faith and works.

    We read that without faith its impossible to please God, so therefore Faith is paramount. We also read that faith without works is dead leading us to the conclusion that works are the manifestation of a faith that is alive and well.

    The problem is that some people become unbalanced, They claim that all one needs to do is believe and you will be saved. This is demonstrably false for the Bible teaches that even the daemons believe! are we to assume that this belief results in their salvation? Hardly. Also people put so much emphasis on works as a kind of way of assuring salvation. This is not possible, salvation is a free gift, you cannot earn salvation though works.

    What is the balanced position? That a faith that is alive and well will manifest good works and these good works will nurture your faith as you see the outworking of the practical wisdom of applying Bible principles. I repeat this lest it be misunderstood,

    Christian teaching must be applied practically otherwise its useless to claim any affinity with the Christ.
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    27 Sep '15 09:59
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Its a kind of false dichotomy.

    For example there is no works verse faith argument, its like saying in chess that strategy verse tactics is the way to win. This is simply not possible because there is a symbiotic relationship between strategy and tactics the same as there is a symbiotic relationship between faith and works. The two are dependent ...[text shortened]... eaching must be applied practically otherwise its useless to claim any affinity with the Christ.
    I agree with this; well put.
  4. Standard memberDasa
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    27 Sep '15 14:171 edit
    Originally posted by chaney3
    If a Christian believes in Jesus Christ, and makes his/her best effort to live a life that God/Jesus would appreciate, is that good enough?? Or, is a person required to live a perfect, sin free life once they are born again?

    The debate seems to revolve around the 'works' issue. If a person believes in Jesus, and decides to make every effort to live like ...[text shortened]... hrough Salvation from the Crucifixion of Jesus that we are saved....not by what we decide to do.
    The very first thing a sincere and honest person should do when he decides to surrender to the Lord, is to search out and find true religion.

    Sadly but true, embracing an animal killing and meat eating religion is starting with SIN on your first day.

    Any religion that allows you to eat meat and therefore be part of the slaughtering process of animals is a bogus religion.

    If you reject this simple truth YOU ARE DISHONEST.
  5. Standard memberRemoved
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    27 Sep '15 14:30
    Originally posted by Dasa
    The very first thing a sincere and honest person should do when he decides to surrender to the Lord, is to search out and find true religion.

    Sadly but true, embracing an animal killing and meat eating religion is starting with SIN on your first day.

    Any religion that allows you to eat meat and therefore be part of the slaughtering process of animals is a bogus religion.

    If you reject this simple truth YOU ARE DISHONEST.
    What's with the animal slaughtering? Why do you think it is wrong to eat meat?
  6. Standard memberRemoved
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    27 Sep '15 14:33
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Its a kind of false dichotomy.

    For example there is no works verse faith argument, its like saying in chess that strategy verse tactics is the way to win. This is simply not possible because there is a symbiotic relationship between strategy and tactics the same as there is a symbiotic relationship between faith and works. The two are dependent ...[text shortened]... eaching must be applied practically otherwise its useless to claim any affinity with the Christ.
    I like it too, as long as the works are a byproduct of said faith. It then isn't even really works, it is just the new nature responding in thankfulness and faith..
  7. Standard memberchaney3
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    27 Sep '15 21:13
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Its a kind of false dichotomy.

    For example there is no works verse faith argument, its like saying in chess that strategy verse tactics is the way to win. This is simply not possible because there is a symbiotic relationship between strategy and tactics the same as there is a symbiotic relationship between faith and works. The two are dependent ...[text shortened]... eaching must be applied practically otherwise its useless to claim any affinity with the Christ.
    Good post Robbie. Thanks.
  8. Mar-a-Lago
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    27 Sep '15 21:44
    Originally posted by Dasa
    The very first thing a sincere and honest person should do when he decides to surrender to the Lord, is to search out and find true religion.

    Sadly but true, embracing an animal killing and meat eating religion is starting with SIN on your first day.

    Any religion that allows you to eat meat and therefore be part of the slaughtering process of animals is a bogus religion.

    If you reject this simple truth YOU ARE DISHONEST.
    If you don't kill animals they get upset when you try and put them in the oven.
  9. Standard memberRemoved
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    28 Sep '15 00:25
    Originally posted by chaney3
    If a Christian believes in Jesus Christ, and makes his/her best effort to live a life that God/Jesus would appreciate, is that good enough?? Or, is a person required to live a perfect, sin free life once they are born again?

    The debate seems to revolve around the 'works' issue. If a person believes in Jesus, and decides to make every effort to live like ...[text shortened]... hrough Salvation from the Crucifixion of Jesus that we are saved....not by what we decide to do.
    What Pleases God
    During a Sunday morning service in St. Joseph, Missouri, a few years back, I asked the congregation how many of them really want to please God more than anything else. Every hand went up. Then I asked them, “How many of you think God is really pleased with you?” Out of at least 400 people, one 11-year-old boy and one 10-year-old girl raised their hands. That was all.

    Very few believers actually believe that they are pleasing to God. Most feel some degree of forgiveness and maybe acceptance, but to think that the Lord is actually pleased with us is another matter. A person can choose to love you because of his or her own goodness, but to be pleased with you, they actually have to like your performance. Right?

    With God, no one could ever be pleasing to Him based on performance. His standard is perfection, and no goodness on our part can ever compensate for our sins. We may please man with our actions, but “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23). It takes the precious blood of Jesus to do that.

    The way we receive the forgiveness that’s available through Jesus’ blood is by faith (Rom. 10:9-17). When we put our faith in Jesus as our Savior, we are pleasing God. Hebrews 11:6 says, “But without faith it is impossible to please him.”

    Faith comes from the heart (Rom. 10:10), and God looks on the heart — not the actions (1 Sam. 16:7). Of course, God sees our actions and will deal with us about them, but only because they are inseparably linked to our hearts (Prov. 23:7). It’s our hearts that really concern God, and faith in Him (trust, reliance) is what He is searching the heart for.

    A person whose actions are not right but who trusts the Lord is more pleasing to God than an individual who is doing the right things but has no faith in God. It’s not a case of those who act the best will get accepted, and those who act the worst get rejected. That would put some of the followers of other religions ahead of many Christians, but that is not what the Bible teaches.

    This is exactly the point Paul is making in Romans 11:6: “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” That’s old English for saying, “It’s one way or the other but not a combination of the two.” We’re either saved by God’s grace through what Jesus did for us, or we’re saved by what we do without Jesus, but not a combination of the two. The choice should be the obvious.

    Elijah is an example of a great man who lived a holy life and didn’t earn God’s pleasure with his actions. He made some serious mistakes. He ran in the face of persecution and became so depressed over it that he asked the Lord to kill him (1 Kin. 19). The Lord gave him three direct commands in an audible voice (1 Kin. 19:15-16), and Elijah never did two of them (refer to my teaching entitled Elijah’s Downfall?). Most people would think God couldn’t have been pleased with Elijah, yet Elijah was translated.

    Even though our heart conditions influence our actions, we all fail in our performance to some degree. Elijah did. If God used performance as the basis of whether or not He was pleased with us, no one would ever pass the test. “If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?” (Ps. 130:3).

    Satan used to accuse me and say, “What makes you think God will use you?” The truth is that none of us are perfect, we don’t deserve the blessings of God. Now I put my faith in Jesus. It’s hard for some people to accept this. It has been ingrained in us that if we aren’t holy, God won’t bless us. When God looks at you, He doesn’t see your goodness — He sees Jesus.

    If you’re walking in faith, you use faith as the rate of exchange between you and God. God is pleased with you even though your actions don’t measure up. Your life may be a wreck, but God is still pleased with you. Our religion says that is hypocrisy. On the contrary, the worst sin is self-righteousness — the attitude that God owes it to you because you’ve been good.

    The difficult thing is that there are no role models for grace. Your employer hires you based on performance. The parent-child relationship is based on performance, even though it shouldn’t be. When it comes to God, your performance can’t earn you anything. If you sin, you need a savior. It is your faith in Jesus that will grant you access to God.

    Most people accept this level of grace when it pertains to salvation. However, some of you may think that after you’re born again, God expects you to pray and study; and if you don’t do these things, God won’t bless you. After you are born again, it doesn’t change! Colossians 2:6 says, “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him.” When we are born again, we come to Jesus just as we are. In fact, if a person has a lot of sin, it’s even more reason to come to Jesus. When it comes to being healed, it’s a different story with most Christians. They think if you haven’t read your Bible today or you had a fight on the way to church, it will keep you from being healed. That’s a double standard. That’s saying that the way you approach God after you’re born again is different. Your actions may not please God today, but you can be healed or delivered in spite of it.

    Some of you may think I’m advocating sin. I’m not — your actions are important to you. Your holiness is important because it changes your heart toward God and not God’s heart toward you. Unholiness will hurt you. Even though God will love you just as much, you won’t love God as much. It will harden your heart toward God. It’s like eating. You must eat to stay alive, but eating is not life. If you miss one meal, will you die? If you constantly live in sin and never feed yourself spiritually, it will kill you. I am not saying you should ignore your actions. You will never do everything perfectly, but don’t let it keep you from receiving the blessings of God.

    Luke 22 shows us an example of someone who had faith and pleased God. In verses 31 and 32 Jesus is talking to Peter before the crucifixion. “And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.” Peter did blow it tremendously. He denied the Lord three times. He cursed and blasphemed God, and yet Jesus prayed that his faith wouldn’t fail. Jesus’ prayers were always answered. Peter’s actions failed, but not his faith. If Peter hadn’t repented it would have killed him. He was restored to God and went on to become a pillar of the church.

    Some of you may be thinking, This is great — I can live like the devil and still get what I want from God.” If you think that, I’d say you aren’t born again, because a Christian wants to please God. This word is for Christians who have a desire to serve God but who still sin. When that happens, you go on and catch up and stand there with confidence in your Savior. Your faith in Jesus pleases God. None of us get saved and head straight on the path to God. We bounce around, but we’re still heading in the general direction.

    “To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved” (Eph. 1:6). You do please God through your faith in Jesus as your Savior, and you must perceive that you please Him.

    http://www.awmi.net/reading/teaching-articles/pleases_god/
  10. Standard memberRajk999
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    28 Sep '15 01:30
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    What Pleases God
    During a Sunday morning service in St. Joseph, Missouri, a few years back, I asked the congregation how many of them really want to please God more than anything else. Every hand went up. Then I asked them, “How many of you think God is really pleased with you?” Out of at least 400 people, one 11-year-old boy and one 10-year-old girl ra ...[text shortened]... must perceive that you please Him.

    http://www.awmi.net/reading/teaching-articles/pleases_god/
    Here is the real story:

    (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (Rom 2:13)

    But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (Jas 2:20-26)
  11. Standard memberKellyJay
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    28 Sep '15 03:24
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Here is the real story:

    (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (Rom 2:13)

    But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by ...[text shortened]... the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also
    . (Jas 2:20-26)[/b]
    Do you do word searches to find verses that you believe support your point of
    view and ignore the rest? This the 2nd time you choose a few verses that you
    think support your point of view ignoring the parts that denounce it.

    It is because none of us can stand before God righteous by the law that Jesus
    came to save us, SINNERS!

    You realize too don't you Abraham believed God long before He did the things
    that he did? We trust Jesus' work for us to justify us before God so that we
    may do the works of God. We are adopted by God and can come to Him
    through Jesus who right now is sitting at God's right hand making intersection
    for us.

    Romans 3
    19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For “no human being will be justified in his sight” by deeds prescribed by the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

    Romans 8:34
    Who is to condemn? It is Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us.
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
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    28 Sep '15 05:18
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    What Pleases God
    During a Sunday morning service in St. Joseph, Missouri, a few years back, I asked the congregation how many of them really want to please God more than anything else. Every hand went up. Then I asked them, “How many of you think God is really pleased with you?” Out of at least 400 people, one 11-year-old boy and one 10-year-old girl ra ...[text shortened]... must perceive that you please Him.

    http://www.awmi.net/reading/teaching-articles/pleases_god/
    Walking with Jesus isn't natural for us, it is natural for us to look at performance, our
    efforts and be please or displeased by our efforts. This type of performance walk with
    God would at best be an up and down experience, when we do good we are up, and
    when we sin or fail in our own eyes we are down, but both of those keep us from Jesus
    Christ. The reason why I say both of those keep us from Jesus Christ it is because we
    are looking at our efforts not Jesus Christ as our foundational for our walk with Christ.

    Walking with Jesus is a sure foundation, it avoids this up and down, because He is a very
    solid foundation. The up and down walk allows us to justify our sins by simply suggesting
    that (well I'm a sinner) it can be justified in our eyes now and then because we just going
    along with that I am a sinner. While walking with Jesus and having our trust in Him, the
    truth is always the same, it doesn't change to justify bad behavior, it doesn't allow for us
    to hold another to a different set of standards that we hold ourselves to we are all held
    to the same standard that God gives us to love Him and each other.

    Putting our faith in Jesus Christ means that we are walking with the righteousness that
    God gives us, it does not change to allow us to just sin. If we read the scripture and walk
    away to just take up a life of sin without turning to God we forget what type of people
    we really are without God. We need to draw close to God, we need the Holy Spirit to lead
    us and teach us, The great thing is our efforts will never be enough, but we have someone
    who loves us who can help us, create in us clean hearts, give us eyes to see the things
    we need to see, ears to hear what God is telling us.

    I believe you are so right, what pleases God is the real question, and that should be what
    we should be striving for, Lord what can you get out of my life as it is now? If we are
    concern about our righteousness than we have not entered into God's grace, if we need
    to settle that, then the one thing we need to do before anything else is get right with God
    through Jesus Christ.
  13. Standard memberRajk999
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    28 Sep '15 11:21
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Do you do word searches to find verses that you believe support your point of
    view and ignore the rest? This the 2nd time you choose a few verses that you
    think support your point of view ignoring the parts that denounce it.

    It is because none of us can stand before God righteous by the law that Jesus
    came to save us, SINNERS!

    You realize too don' ...[text shortened]... s, who died, yes, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us.
    I dont know what you carrying on about. The simple answer to how we can please God, is to follow the commandments of Christ. Your claim of doing good works [automatically] if you have faith and believe in Christ makes no sense and is not in the Bible.

    Human effort is a requirement. Nobody is automatically righteous.
  14. Standard memberRajk999
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    28 Sep '15 11:22
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Walking with Jesus isn't natural for us, ...
    Walking with Jesus probably is not natural for YOU. Speak for yourself.
    Walking with Jesus is natural for some people.
  15. Standard memberKellyJay
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    28 Sep '15 12:57
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I dont know what you carrying on about. The simple answer to how we can please God, is to follow the commandments of Christ. Your claim of doing good works [automatically] if you have faith and believe in Christ makes no sense and is not in the Bible.

    Human effort is a requirement. Nobody is automatically righteous.
    In Christ we are righteous, in Christ we will be doing the works of God. Even believing in
    Christ is called the work of God. Human effort outside of God is just that human effort that
    does not clean us of our sins.
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