05 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999I suggest you give me the scripture to back up your points so we can look at them in
What is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Whoever is born of the Spirit cannot sin
A spirit does not have flesh and blood.
You sin. You are born of flesh
You have flesh and blood
You are mortal and corruptible.
When Christ returns THEN IF you please Christ, THEN you are regenerated, given a new and glorious body fashioned after Christ, and you are only ...[text shortened]...
Let Christ elevate you to your rightful position as one of His in His Kingdom
Im done now 🙂
contents. I have no issue with a lot of what you say except that God doesn't have an active
role in our lives today, that God does not change us to help us walk with Him and do the
works He has for us to do.
05 Oct 15
Originally posted by KellyJayYou agree with some so tell me what you have an issue with so I will provide references for those only.
I suggest you give me the scripture to back up your points so we can look at them in
contents. I have no issue with a lot of what you say except that God doesn't have an active
role in our lives today, that God does not change us to help us walk with Him and do the
works He has for us to do.
Where did I say that God does not have an active role in our lives today? Where?
05 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999When you deny that Christ is in us, or the Holy Spirit is in us, when we must be born again
You agree with some so tell me what you have an issue with so I will provide references for those only.
Where did I say that God does not have an active role in our lives today? Where?
starts this walk with God while God is in us and we are in God.
Originally posted by KellyJayYou are really very slow KJ, and I never denied any of what you said I denied.
When you deny that Christ is in us, or the Holy Spirit is in us, when we must be born again
starts this walk with God while God is in us and we are in God.
Let me say this over:
1. When a man accepts Christ as his saviour, the process is as follows
a He is baptised into Christ and has put on Christ
b this putting on is a promise to follow Christ commandments
c he is now son of God in a special sense and in return God gives his children good gifts - Holy Spirit gifts which is meant to guide and help .. and the spirit of Christ [which is the teachings of Christ] is in that man.
d. the man is still flesh and blood, still mortal, still corruptible, still capable of sin
e. the man remains in that state until Christ returns
2. When Christ returns
a. He selects those that are His
b. Christ changes these followers into spirit beings - that is what is meant by born of the Spirit. this is the same as regeneration
c. a regenerated being, has a new body, a new spirit, and is incorruptible, immortal .
d. these regenerated beings enter the Kingdom of God.
Number 1 is about being born of water
Number 2 is about being born of the Spirit,and this happens only at the return of Christ.
Tell me now how is any of that denying that God helps and Christ is in us. Christ is in his followers and guiding them and they have HS gifts BUT THEY ARE STILL FLESH AND BLOOD AND STILL CAN SIN.
Tell me which of the above points you need references for.
05 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999I disagree with you when you claim we are born again, but for me you hit all the highlights
You are really very slow KJ, and I never denied any of what you said I denied.
Let me say this over:
1. When a man accepts Christ as his saviour, the process is as follows
a He is baptised into Christ and has put on Christ
b this putting on is a promise to follow Christ commandments
c he is now son of God in a special sense and in return God ...[text shortened]... FLESH AND BLOOD AND STILL CAN SIN.
Tell me which of the above points you need references for.
just right outside of that one. What makes me wonder about you is that you have in the past
said that this isn't required, that people through works are going be saved. I don't believe
that is true, it is through Jesus Christ then we work.
05 Oct 15
Originally posted by KellyJayAfter reviewing what you said again I'll have to put out a little more detail on where we
I disagree with you when you claim we are born again, but for me you hit all the highlights
just right outside of that one. What makes me wonder about you is that you have in the past
said that this isn't required, that people through works are going be saved. I don't believe
that is true, it is through Jesus Christ then we work.
disagree. We are close, but not quite in agreement.
Originally posted by KellyJayWhat does this mean .. I disagree with you when you claim we are born again
I disagree with you when you claim we are born again, but for me you hit all the highlights
just right outside of that one. What makes me wonder about you is that you have in the past
said that this isn't required, that people through works are going be saved. I don't believe
that is true, it is through Jesus Christ then we work.
What part of my breakdown do you want references for? Is it #2a&b ?
What I am focusing on is the life of the Christian. Lets forget non-Christians for the time being.
05 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999I'll get to this a little later, time is my issue now a little busy.
What does this mean .. I disagree with you when you claim we are born again
What part of my breakdown do you want references for? Is it #2a&b ?
What I am focusing on is the life of the Christian. Lets forget non-Christians for the time being.
I agree one thing at a time.
Originally posted by KellyJayHere are some points that Christians typically ignore:
I'll get to this a little later, time is my issue now a little busy.
I agree one thing at a time.
- You cannot be BOTH spirit and flesh... pick one
- Having HS gifts or having Gods Spirit or Christ's Spirit is not equivalent to being 'born of the Spirit'
- The regeneration process is the same as being 'born of the Spirit'
- Christ said the regeneration takes place when He returns
- The process of regeneration is the change that will take place in those that are Christ's. Paul described the regeneration process in some detail, and even pointed out that he himself has to wait for Christ to return:
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Php 3:20-21)
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1Cor 15:51-54)
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. (2Tim 4:7-8)
Nothing like this has happened. Any Christian claiming to have been regenerated or claiming that he is 'born of the Spirit' is mistaken.
You cannot be in this fleshly body and claim that you are regenerated or 'born of the Spirit'.
06 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999Actually when Jesus came back he had them handle Him so that they could see He was
Here are some points that Christians typically ignore:
- You cannot be BOTH spirit and flesh... pick one
- Having HS gifts or having Gods Spirit or Christ's Spirit is not equivalent to being 'born of the Spirit'
- The regeneration process is the same as being 'born of the Spirit'
- Christ said the regeneration takes place when He returns
- The pr ...[text shortened]...
You cannot be in this fleshly body and claim that you are regenerated or 'born of the Spirit'.
flesh and bone, I imagine you believe Jesus had God's Spirit within Him too correct?
I have some appointments today, your posts are well thought out and deserve more than
just what is off the top of my head to respond to you. I'll come back when I can put in
some time and effort for you. Thank you for the effort you are without a doubt putting into
this discussion.
06 Oct 15
Originally posted by KellyJayOf course Jesus had Gods spirit in Him but like he said that was not spirit, he was still a fleshly being.
Actually when Jesus came back he had them handle Him so that they could see He was
flesh and bone, I imagine you believe Jesus had God's Spirit within Him too correct?
I have some appointments today, your posts are well thought out and deserve more than
just what is off the top of my head to respond to you. I'll come back when I can put in
some time a ...[text shortened]... effort for you. Thank you for the effort you are without a doubt putting into
this discussion.
06 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999I'm sorry, Jesus had God's Spirit in Him, but He was still a fleshly being...so He was a
Of course Jesus had Gods spirit in Him but like he said that was not spirit, he was still a fleshly being.
fleshly being with God's Spirit within Him, correct? It looks like you went both directions
in your last sentence.
Point being as a fleshly being God's Spirit can still reside in that fleshly being.
Originally posted by KellyJayI did agree with that. Maybe you need to read over the last couple posts I made. Or is it that Im not being clear. Gods Spirit can reside in a fleshly being but that being remains flesh .. it is not a spirit being.
I'm sorry, Jesus had God's Spirit in Him, but He was still a fleshly being...so He was a
fleshly being with God's Spirit within Him, correct? It looks like you went both directions
in your last sentence.
Point being as a fleshly being God's Spirit can still reside in that fleshly being.
Gods Spirit was in many many people, prophets, kings and priests etc . But they were all flesh and blood. They are NOT SPIRIT and they are NOT REGENERATED neither are they ' born of the spirit'.
The regeneration process [born of the spirit] changes those chosen, into spirit beings with a body like that of Christ .. glorious, incorruptible, immortal and free of sin.
Even Paul said that he has to wait for the return of Christ for this to happen to him. Some Christians take a lot of liberty with the Bible by claiming to be regenerated. It is fine to claim that one has HS gifts, or that one has been blessed with having Gods spirit or Christ's spirit .. but to claim that one has eternal life and one is regenerated is just delusional.
Christians have a promise of eternal life, and live in hope and should await the arrival of Christ with patience and humility. .. like Paul did.
06 Oct 15
Originally posted by Rajk999Okay, but I never called anyone a spirit being, I've been maintaining that God's Spirit
I did agree with that. Maybe you need to read over the last couple posts I made. Or is it that Im not being clear. Gods Spirit can reside in a fleshly being but that being remains flesh .. it is not a spirit being.
Gods Spirit was in many many people, prophets, kings and priests etc . But they were all flesh and blood. They are NOT SPIRIT and they are N ...[text shortened]... ive in hope and should await the arrival of Christ with patience and humility. .. like Paul did.
comes to live in those that have invited Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Savior. That the
Holy Spirit will then lead and teach those that belong to God, that they will when they
follow God will not sin. I get a little push back from you for statements like this, as I have
also said that without God's Spirit you don't belong to God as the scriptures says. I also
call this entering into us the born again experience we have with God, because until then
we are without Him in our lives, we become new creatures in Christ at that time when we
become born again.
It is quite possible we are in agreement more often than not, but that we hit snags on how
we say things and how the other reads/hears them. This born again experience is not the
change where we will be like Him when we are transformed when our corruptible bodies
take on incorruptible, but it is the one where we enter into a very personal relationship with
God that those without Him do not share. Jesus prayed for this before He left us and went
back to sit at the right hand of God.
John 17American Standard Version (ASV)
17 These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the son may glorify thee:
2 even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life.
3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by Rajk999“- You cannot be BOTH spirit and flesh... pick one
Here are some points that Christians typically ignore:
- You cannot be BOTH spirit and flesh... pick one
- Having HS gifts or having Gods Spirit or Christ's Spirit is not equivalent to being 'born of the Spirit'
- The regeneration process is the same as being 'born of the Spirit'
- Christ said the regeneration takes place when He returns
- The pr ...[text shortened]...
You cannot be in this fleshly body and claim that you are regenerated or 'born of the Spirit'.
- Having HS gifts or having Gods Spirit or Christ's Spirit is not equivalent to being 'born of the Spirit'
- The regeneration process is the same as being 'born of the Spirit'
- Christ said the regeneration takes place when He returns
- The process of regeneration is the change that will take place in those that are Christ's. Paul described the regeneration process in some detail, and even pointed out that he himself has to wait for Christ to return:”
Okay point by point:
“You cannot be both Spirit and flesh…pick one.”
I disagree we are flesh and we have spirits, and when we become born again we receive
God’s Spirit. After several exchanges with you I believe we are in agreement here, but I
can be wrong and surprised it has happen before.
Having the Holy Spirit is done as soon as we receive Jesus into our hearts, but there is
another experience that can happen and that is being baptized in the Holy Spirit. You can
find this on the day of Pentecost, and other times in Acts where God moves upon
believers. A few examples show that this baptism is not the same as just accepting the
Lord, it is something else.
Acts 1:5
For John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.
Acts 8:14-17
14 Now when the apostles that were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit: 16 for as yet it was fallen upon none of them: only they had been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
The scriptures speak about us as we live our day by day lives, the changes where we
become sinless I agree is after we pass from this life. At that point in time the struggle
with sin will end and death will not have power of us anymore our mortal must put on
immortality, our corruptible will put on incorruptible. Until that time we will fight the good
fight, and with God we will live out our lives in Him.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53American Standard Version (ASV)
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.