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04 Jul 09
Originally posted by jaywillWhat's the likelihood I could persuade you that little men guard treasures hidden in caves all around the world? I've heard the stories. Many scoff at the unbelievers.
Proof is different from persuasion. You know?
It is said that Jesus presented Himself to His disciples with [b]"many irrefutable proofs" (Acts 1:3) over a period of forty days.[/b]
The New Testament also candidly says that some of His disciples doubted after the resurrection (Matt. 28:17).
Proof is not persuasion.[/b]
05 Jul 09
2 edits
Originally posted by TerrierJack================================
What's the likelihood I could persuade you that little men guard treasures hidden in caves all around the world? I've heard the stories. Many scoff at the unbelievers.
What's the likelihood I could persuade you that little men guard treasures hidden in caves all around the world? I've heard the stories. Many scoff at the unbelievers.
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Seriously speaking, I hear comparisons like this a lot from skeptics. On the surface they appear clever. But actually there is very little comparison.
The teaching and deeds of Jesus, IMO, are in a different catagory from you just pulling out of the air some zany islolated thing like:
1.) pink invisible unicorns
2.) little leprecons
3.) little men guarding treasures in caves around the world
I think you have to look more carefully at the substance of the whole New Testament and not just pull out one or two isolated things.
One of the reasons I am a believer is because from the time I called upon the name of Jesus to reach Jesus, things began to change deep in my heart. And this to the point that this passage of John became meaningful to me:
" ... in this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He gave to us. ... In this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, that He has given to us of His Spirit." (See 1 John 3:24; 4:13)
That the Spirit of the resurrected Jesus had indeed entered into my innermost being made sense to me in light of changes in my life. I could believe that Christ actually becomes available to people - "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
I can't take this in isolation. I have to consider it in light of what Christ and His apostles taught and what other followers of Jesus have experienced for two thousand years.
His teaching corresponded with what I have been experiencing. He has come to make an abode with those who love Him:
"Jesus answer and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
I believe that Jesus Christ, that resurrected God-man, in the form of "a life giving Spirit" has indeed come to make an abode in my heart. And with Him His Father - one mysterious Father - Son - Holy Spirit God.
When you have been in bondage to things and by calling "O Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus" you begin to experience freedom and empowerment, you take seriously the claims of the Man upon whom you are calling.
05 Jul 09
You quote well from the Bible, but..........could you answer me a question I've posed on several occasions and never had an answer that addresses it.
Why are there different dates in the Bible for the birth of Jesus?
In Mark it states he was born during the reign of Herod. He died 4 BCE.
In Luke it says he was born when Quirinius was 'governor' of Syria. He never held this position until 6 AD.
Which gospel was wrong?
05 Jul 09
1 edit
Originally posted by SidVic=============================
You quote well from the Bible, but..........could you answer me a question I've posed on several occasions and never had an answer that addresses it.
Why are there different dates in the Bible for the birth of Jesus?
In Mark it states he was born during the reign of Herod. He died 4 BCE.
In Luke it says he was born when Quirinius was 'governor' of Syria. He never held this position until 6 AD.
Which gospel was wrong?
You quote well from the Bible, but..........could you answer me a question I've posed on several occasions and never had an answer that addresses it.
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One of the reasons that I quote the Bible is because of my own experience of coming to meet Jesus.
I use to have many arguments with a friend about Jesus. I do not remember anything about those arguments. Nothing .... blank. The only thing I remember well is that one time he said something which somehow impressed me without me realizing it. And I found out latter that it was a quote from the Bible.
I wager that if years from now someone I talk to gets saved, they won't remember much of these debates. Perhaps they will remember something powerful from the Word of God, and that will give them faith.
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Why are there different dates in the Bible for the birth of Jesus?
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I wasn't aware that any dates were given for the birth of Jesus.
What dates do you mean?
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In Mark it states he was born during the reign of Herod. He died 4 BCE.
In Luke it says he was born when Quirinius was 'governor' of Syria. He never held this position until 6 AD.
Which gospel was wrong?
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There is a lengthy technical discussion on this in Glen Miller's Christian Thinktank. If you don't mind I will refer you to that discussion.
I would have to re-read it myself to post a concise reply here. See if you find your answer here:
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/quirinius.html
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05 Jul 09
Originally posted by SidVicSince historicity is about all christianity has these days rest assured that a suitability long winded argument will be made to try to convince you that both (x and y) and (x and not y) are somehow both true - because they must defend every little scrap of their book (except of course the pieces they ignore in their daily lives.) There's actually very little independent evidence for any of these wild tales (just Josephus and he was primarily interested in rehabilitating his own reputation and not too concerned with actual facts.) So to argue about them is to be distracted from the real concerns of humanity that so urgently need to be addressed. What are doing as a species about the coming big-rock? Can we reverse the damage that we have inflicted on the eco-system? Can we stop arguing (and killing each other) about trivia long enough to value our future of our children? Weigh all this against the massive insecurity that must drive someone to seek personal salvation and I think you'll understand why "Jesus wept." Today he would cry a river.
Why are there different dates in the Bible for the birth of Jesus?
06 Jul 09
1 edit
Originally posted by TerrierJackChrist has an answer for the problem of sin and death. He has an answer to the problem of my existence, why I am here.
Since historicity is about all christianity has these days rest assured that a suitability long winded argument will be made to try to convince you that both (x and y) and (x and not y) are somehow both true - because they must defend every little scrap of their book (except of course the pieces they ignore in their daily lives.) There's actually very li ...[text shortened]... rsonal salvation and I think you'll understand why "Jesus wept." Today he would cry a river.
Jesus Christ offers me total peace as to my sinful past and empowering grace for the present as well as undying hope for the future.
Christ offers me transformation into His glorious image. I can see it happening and others around me can also.
Christ offers me the gift of eternal life and the love of a family of brothers and sisters in Christ around the world. He offers me sweet fellowship and oneness with millions of fellow believers.
Christ offers me what I firmly believe is the truth about life as opposed to so many missteps and outright lies of the blind leading the blind.
Christ offers me the salvation of my being and the the environment of this world in which I live - a world to come free from sin, death, and unrighteousness where there are tears no more.
Christ offers me a life meaningful from second to second and adventure to be one with Him in God's eternal plan. Christ offers me the assurance of final victory and joy in my heart the carries me through trials and tribulations of every kind. He has never let me down.
Now if I drop my experience of Jesus Christ and take up your philosophy, how will it benefit me? What does your philosophy have to offer concerning these vital questions of man's existence ?
Other than stand along the sideline and jeer, what do you have that is better for me than Jesus Christ the Son of God ??
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06 Jul 09
salvation of my being
Couldn't have pointed out your interests any better than you just did. If only the whole world would bend to your ego we could have peace, eh? Altho I must confess, other than me, me, and still more me I couldn't understand much of what you said. It was jibberish - substitute the word "Allah" for "Christ" and the meter reads about the same - its all about you. The particular divinity is inconsequential. The obsession with self-preservation (even in the face of death) is all that matters. What would it take for the rest of existence to matter more than you?