Originally posted by josephwEdit: "But keep it in mind that I hold to the idea or concept that that which is known about God is revealed by God, and I can find no word in the scriptures that even remotely describes God as transcedental."
Ok. So here's my reply. But keep it in mind that I hold to the idea or concept that that which is known about God is revealed by God, and I can find no word in the scriptures that even remotely describes God as transcedental.
If one uses that term to mean that [b]if what can be known about God is known, then therefore God is not transcedental, then pe ...[text shortened]... le, and that would be a direct contradiction of the revelation of God, which is the Word of God.[/b]
In fact, that which is "known" about G-d is not revealed by G-d, but from human beings which claim that G-d was somehow revealed to them by specific means and then they present their divine revelation in the form of a specific scripture. There is no way to evaluate if their claim is false or accurate, one has simply to take it or leave it. In this context, I cannot take it and so I dismiss the scripture as just another human invention amongst many;
Now, as regards the core of your opinion, if G-d was not indeed transcedental, this entity would be a known observer, ie a sum of known elements of reality. But it is not; all we have at our disposal, are man made scriptures which are promoted by specific religious personages as the so called "Word of G-d". Therefore methinks that when a person, any person, defines G-d, the sole thing it is doing is that it violates the principle that G-d is unknowable😵
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Originally posted by SuzianneYou seem to keep missing my point, so I'll try to lay things out as simply as possible.
No, not at all, because He knew, as do most Christians today, that Jesus IS God. So yes, the Son of God IS God.
Don't blame me if your mind is too little to wrap itself around that.
And "the reason that Jesus believed that the Jews accused Him of blasphemy" was considered in my post. Except, of course, the reason I quoted that passage was dif ...[text shortened]... od. Why can the unbelieving Jews get it right, but you cannot? THAT is josephw's entire point.
Look at the verse JW quoted in the OP:
John 10
33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
In and of itself this verse only shows that the Jews believed that Jesus committed blasphemy by claiming to be God. The verse only shows what the Jews believed. It does not show that Jesus was God Himself. It does not show that Jesus claimed to be God. Once again, in and of itself the verse only shows what the Jews believed. If JW, DG, et al., believe otherwise they are clearly wrong.
Look at how Jesus took the accusation that He committed blasphemy by claiming to be God.
John 10
36 ...Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
Jesus plainly states that he took the accusation as referring to the fact that He said that He is the Son of God. Like I said, "Jesus seems to believe that it's because He said, 'I am the Son of God'". Either you believe Jesus' take on it or you don't.
I don't know if I can lay this out more simply for you. Hopefully you'll get it this time.
Keep in mind that while Jesus called Himself the Son of God, He also said that the peacemakers shall be called the sons of God
Matthew 5
9“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Also keep in mind that while Jesus said, "I and the Father are one", Jesus also asked that His followers be made "one" with each other, Jesus and God.
John 17
20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne"In and of itself, this verse only shows that the Jews believed that Jesus committed blasphemy by claiming to be God."
You seem to keep missing my point, so I'll try to lay things out as simply as possible.
Look at the verse JW quoted in the OP:
John 10
33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
In and of itself, this verse only shows that the Jews believed that Jesus committed blasph ...[text shortened]... n unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
NO! The verse shows that they knew perfectly well that Jesus WAS saying just that- "makest thyself God". If Jesus is God He certainly wouldn't merely be making the claim. You quote from a corrupt translation.
They didn't just believe it. They were going to stone Him for blasphemy, because He WAS making Himself God.
There's no equivocating on what the verse says. And there are many more.
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Originally posted by josephwC'mon JW.
[b]"In and of itself, this verse only shows that the Jews believed that Jesus committed blasphemy by claiming to be God."
NO! The verse shows that they knew perfectly well that Jesus WAS saying just that- "makest thyself God". If Jesus is God He certainly wouldn't merely be making the claim. You quote from a corrupt translation.
They didn't just be ...[text shortened]... making Himself God.
There's no equivocating on what the verse says. And there are many more.[/b]
The Pharisees believed the following:
Matthew 12
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
Just because the Pharisees believed that Jesus cast out demons only by Beelzebul, doesn't show that it's true. In and of itself the verse only shows what the Pharisees believed.
Similarly with John 10:33 and the Jews.
Can you really not understand this?
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneCan you really not understand this?
C'mon JW.
The Pharisees believed the following:
Matthew 12
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
Just because the Pharisees believed that Jesus cast out demons only by Beelzebul, doesn't show that it's true. In and of itself the verse only shows what the Pharisees believed.
Similarly with John 10:33 and the Jews.
Can you really not understand this?
you are battling against a zombie apocalypse, try to reason as much as you like, all you will get is babble and drool!
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIf the Pharisees actually believed that Jesus was casting out the demons by the power of Beelzebul, then that would also explain why they attempted to stone Him for blasphemy, because He was making Himself out to be God.
C'mon JW.
The Pharisees believed the following:
Matthew 12
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
Just because the Pharisees believed that Jesus cast out demons only by Beelzebul, doesn't show that it's true. In and of itself the verse only shows what the Pharisees believed.
Similarly with John 10:33 and the Jews.
Can you really not understand this?
Originally posted by RJHindsits just like a trinitarian to get their beliefs from the Pharisees, you and the Pharisees are one!
If the Pharisees actually believed that Jesus was casting out the demons by the power of Beelzebul, then that would also explain why they attempted to stone Him for blasphemy, because He was making Himself out to be God.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneSounds like a very level-headed and accurate understanding of what the Bible says. But their minds are blocked by their dogma.
You seem to keep missing my point, so I'll try to lay things out as simply as possible.
Look at the verse JW quoted in the OP:
John 10
33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
In and of itself this verse only shows that the Jews believed that Jesus committed blasphe ...[text shortened]... n unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
Vistesd in another thread posted a reply to sonship that there are sufficient Biblical support for both sides of this argument. I would agree with that and I understand why they place Christ on the same level with God but I personally would not do that since there are clear verses which say God is greater than Chrsit, verses which they refuse to address.
In any case if they care to answer, I would like to know why are they approaching this topic with such passion. Seems to me that they believe that someone must believe that Christ is God in order to be a Christian.
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Originally posted by yoctobyteI am an individual within a society, there are many other fathers, sons, uncles etc, am I the same person because i am also a father a son and an uncle, hardly, so enough of the pretence! R J Hinds and all trinitarins who espouse this interpretation have taken their beliefs from the Pharisees! the shame of it
RC, are you...
1) Father
2) Son
3) Brother
4) Uncle
5) Cousin
7) Grandpa
8) Friend
It's not hard to be all those things and the same, do you see?
Originally posted by yoctobyteRobbie is all those things, Yes.
RC, are you...
1) Father
2) Son
3) Brother
4) Uncle
5) Cousin
7) Grandpa
8) Friend
It's not hard to be all those things and the same, do you see?
What about Robbie's relationship with his actual father.
Is he the same as his father?
This is what you people say Christ = God. But the Bible says otherwise.