John 3:16

The verse is about God giving Himself to those who believe into Christ.
The eternal life is simply the life of God and means God joins to your being.

It should be fairly obvious that persishing as an alternative is viewed as a negative - whatever it means.

To have eternal life is juxtaposed against perishing. The former is positive and the latter is negative.

A major point of the passage is that the life and death of Jesus Christ is evidence of God's great love for the world - "For God SO LOVED the world that He gave ..."

People insisting that they don't understand John 3:16 may perhaps just not want to understand. What you don't understand, after all, you can rationalize you are in no obligation to respond to. So they may reason.

Not perish as in eternal death. those who reject the free gift will be cast in the Lake of fire to perish. Interestingly, if one perishes or ceases to exist, he/she cannot burn forever because I would think you would need eternal life to accomplish that.

How can the wrath of God abide on something that does not exist ?

Same chapter - John the Baptist adds " He who believes into the Son has eternal life; but he who disobeys the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him." (John 3:36)

Can anything of God, indeed, anything at all, abide on someone who does not exist ? I don't think so.

Originally posted by sonship

Not perish as in eternal death. those who reject the free gift will be cast in the Lake of fire to perish. Interestingly, if one perishes or ceases to exist, he/she cannot burn forever because I would think you would need eternal life to accomplish that.

How can the wrath of God abide on something that does not exist ?

Same chapter hing of God, indeed, anything at all, abide on someone who does not exist ? I don't think so.

God's wrath is that they will be cast in the Lake of fire, then they die again. God who is holy and good, pure and righteous, is not someone who would torture someone in utter pain and anguish forever. It would contradict his character. It is illogical and is simply traditional teaching that was inspired by Greek Mythology and has corrupted God's word for some time now.
And yes, one would certainly need eternal life to burn forever, so your theology is lacking. "He who has the Son has life, he who does not have the Son does not have life" 1John 5:12

Originally posted by twhitehead
Oddly enough no theist is willing to tell me what it means. I have asked many many times, but it seems theists like to make vague, nice sounding statements, but are unwilling to explain what they really mean.

Traditionally, this verse has been taken to mean that faith in Jesus Christ (i.e. with baptism and freedom from mortal sin) will ensure that the individual has eternal salvation with God in the afterlife.

I think some of the posters here are taking a perverse reading of this line. In New Testament Greek, the verb 'apollumai' ('perish'😉 generally does not mean 'to die' but means 'to be lost'. 'Life' ('zoe'😉 often refers specifically to 'salvation'. This is clear at 1. Cor.1.18 ('to the lost, the message of the cross is folly; to the living (i.e. the saved), it is God's power.

It is quite convention NT language to conflate life with salvation and death with damnation. And obviously in Corinthians1, Paul cannot be referring to the dead (why would they see the cross as folly? It surely means the lost/damned/not-saved.) So I would follow the canonical reading of John 3.16.

Originally posted by sonship
People insisting that they don't understand John 3:16 may perhaps just not want to understand.

Several theists have already admitted they don't know the answer. You too are somewhat vague were the best you can do seems to be to label 'perish' as 'something negative' and everlasting life' as 'something positive'. So do you theists also not want to understand?

Originally posted by Conrau K
.... will ensure that the individual has eternal salvation with God in the afterlife.

And I am trying to determine what that 'afterlife' consists of. Its all a very nice idea to live forever, but its not logical. So I want to understand whether this 'afterlife' business is actually living forever (ie it can be made logical in some way) or whether it is something else just posing as living forever. So far it seems that most theists just haven't got a clue.

Originally posted by twhitehead

And I am trying to determine what that 'afterlife' consists of. Its all a very nice idea to live forever, but its not logical. So I want to understand whether this 'afterlife' business is actually living forever (ie it can be made logical in some way) or whether it is something else just posing as living forever. So far it seems that most theists just haven't got a clue.

Eternity Past) ----------------------------- [time/human history/2013...?] ---------------------------- (Eternity Future >

Originally posted by twhitehead
And I am trying to determine what that 'afterlife' consists of. Its all a very nice idea to live forever, but its not logical. So I want to understand whether this 'afterlife' business is actually living forever (ie it can be made logical in some way) or whether it is something else just posing as living forever. So far it seems that most theists just haven't got a clue.

The traditional Christian doctrine is that after death, the souls of the departed go to either Heaven or Hell (or perhaps Purgatory). Then there is an end of time, a bodily resurrection of all people, a judgment and then eternal, bodily life in either Heaven or Hell.

There has never been a consensus on the details of this, what exactly is resurrected or what the material world would be after the end times. It's not that Christians haven't thought about it; it's just that no consensus has ever been reached. It's just not part of the "revealed" doctrines of the faith.

God's wrath is that they will be cast in the Lake of fire, then they die again. God who is holy and good, pure and righteous, is not someone who would torture someone in utter pain and anguish forever.

God being "holy and good, pure and righteous" does not make it impossible that He should execute eternal perdition. Apparently it is unbelieving human sentiment which insists that the holy and good and pure and righteous God cannot judge eternally.

I would first draw your attention to the proclamation of the angels and the altar at the pouring out of a fearful judging bowl of His wrath.

"And the third poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters and they became blood.

And I heard the angel who had power over the waters saying, You are righteous who is and who was, the Holy One, because You have judged these things.

For they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink; they are worthy of it.

And I heard the altar saying, Yes, Lord God the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments." (Rev. 16:4-7)

To cause His enemies to drink blood in return for their persecuting His saints is declared "righteous". I don't think the angel agrees with the human attitude that this wrath is not righteous of God. The angel says this judging is carried out by the "Holy" God.

The altar, symbolizing the poured out lives of the saints, following their Leader the poured out Son of God, adds that all of God's judgments are "true and righteous".

"Yes, Lord God the Almghty, true and righteous are Your judgments."

This would include all of God's judgments [plural], would it not ?

One of these [plural] judgments is that the devil's torment along with that of the antichrist and his false prophet continues "forever and ever".

"And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10)

You are telling me that God is holy, pure, good, and righteous and therefore not thus judge these three. However the Bible says He will - all three -

" and THEY will be tormented day and night forever and ever ".

The the same place is the destiny of all those whose names are not recorded in the book of life -

"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev.20:15)

1.) It may be logical to assume different degrees of punishment. But it is hard to ascertain that because if so, only the worst result seems to be communicated.

2.) I don't think it is the spirit of the gospel to encourage anyone that they should explore and find out if there are different degrees.

The overall message is that the lake of fire is somewhere one should not want to be PERIOD.

3.) Because we today are not fully conformed to the image of Christ we may not agree with all of God's ways. I too am horrified by the thought of eternal punishment. I expect that one day we will be fully conformed to the image of Christ and see everything as God Himself sees. And that includes that His judgments [plural] are true and righteous altogether.

"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; for all the nations will come and worship before You, for Your righeous judgments have been manifested." (Rev. 15:4)

Did you see this? His judgments are "righteous".

The Bible says God's judgments are righteous. You are telling me that eternal judgment which is one of His judgments [plural] are not righteous. Which should I believe? I think I better believe the Bible. Don't you think so too?

There seems to be the diluted anger of God and the undiluted anger of God. The diluted anger of God may still contain some element of mercy. But Revelation 14 speaks of an undiluted anger of God which is not tempered with any mercy. By this time mercy is all over.

" If anyone worships the neast and his image and receive a mark on his forehead or on his hand, He also shall drink of the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed UNDILUTED in the cup of His wrath; and he shall be tormented in fire and brimestone before the holy angels and before the Lamb.

And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:9b-11)

Here there is no temporing of the fury with a measure of mercy. This is the ultimate displeasure of God in judgment. And He carries out not in secret away from the holy angels but in their very presence and in the presence of Christ the Redeemer -

" ... and he shall be tormented in fire and brimestone BEFORE THE HOLY ANGELS AND BEFORE THE LAMB"

I don't think the Bible can warn us more emphatically that God will do this.

"And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever".

That is NOT the smoke of their non-existence because they no longer have being in any sense. That is the smoke of thier tormenting. Ashes are not tormented. So in spite of reasonings that such eternal punishment would mean that they have eternal life, there has to be someone existing for their tormenting to continue forever and ever with its accompanying smoke.

It would contradict his character. It is illogical and is simply traditional teaching that was inspired by Greek Mythology and has corrupted God's word for some time now.

No you cannot resist eternal perdition by saying it is traditional Greek mythology. This would be convenient but I don't think it works.

More importantly, I don't think sinners care. Denying eternal punishment doesn't seem to me to encourage people to believe in Christ more that they may be saved.

Originally posted by sonship

God's wrath is that they will be cast in the Lake of fire, then they die again. God who is holy and good, pure and righteous, is not someone who would torture someone in utter pain and anguish forever.

God being "holy and good, pure and righteous" does not make it impossible that He should execute eternal perdition. Apparently it is u ...[text shortened]... le to believe in Christ more that they may be saved.

I am not questioning God's wrath nor judgement, I do however question your understanding of the scriptures.

Fire is a preservative (who else believes this?).
It is ironic that most Christians believe that Adolph Hitler will have everlasting life. You might be thinking: “What?! No they don’t.” But think again—if Hitler is being tormented forever in fire, does he or does he not have everlasting life? It’s a crummy life, but it is everlasting life, right? On the contrary, Romans 6:23 says: “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” God never says that the wages of sin is eternal torment. No, He says that the penalty for sin is an end to one’s life.

It is important to realize that no verse in the Bible says that the “soul” or “spirit” lives on by itself. No verse says that “hell” is a place of everlasting torment in fire. These falsehoods originated with God’s archenemy, and infiltrated Christianity via mistranslation and the mixing of Greek culture and beliefs with the truths presented in the Word of God.

Thinking logically, does it seem fair to you that God, who the Bible says is love, would forever inflict upon wicked people the excruciating agony of constantly burning? Think about it—if “forever” were likened to a feast, 50 million years of torment is a small hors d’oeuvre (appetizer). Wouldn’t most rational thinkers conclude that, even for quintessential bad boys like Hitler or Bin Laden, that is simply not fair? Sure they would. Justice would not be served by such an egregious atrocity, and how sad it is that this erroneous belief has contributed to many people turning away from the God whom they were told would do such a thing.

The late Sidney Hatch well expressed how twisted is the idea of a just God forever tormenting by fire those who refused to believe in Him:

“A civilized society looks with horror upon the abuse and torture of children or adults. Even where capital punishment is practiced, the aim is to implement it as mercifully as possible. Are we to believe then that a holy God—our heavenly Father—is less just than the courts of men? Of course not.”

And the late Swedish Lutheran Bishop John Persone wrote:

“For me it is inexplainable how a person who holds the orthodox view [of eternal torment] can at any time have a glad moment in this life. He is constantly mingling with people whose final destiny will be to be tormented eternally without end…To me it is even more inexplainable that such an ‘orthodox’ person can expect even a happy moment in eternity, when he knows that contemporaneously with his blessed estate continues the endless torment and agony of innumerable millions of the accursed. Can he, if he loves his neighbors as himself, yes, even if he has just a little bit of human love and is not solely a selfish wretch, have even a single happy moment?”

Well said, wouldn’t you agree?

Think for a moment about fire. What does it do to things it touches? What do you do if you come home and discover that your house is on fire? Do you feel any sense of urgency? Or do you say, “Hey, let’s go to a movie, and when we get back, we’ll call the Fire Department. There’s no hurry, because we know that our home will burn forever.” Nothing burns forever, and a simple word study of “fire” in Scripture shows that its primary purpose is to destroy useless things, like chaff, and evil things, like wicked people, evil spirits, and Satan (Malachi 4:1 is a classic example).
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=455

Originally posted by Conrau K
There has never been a consensus on the details of this, what exactly is resurrected or what the material world would be after the end times. It's not that Christians haven't thought about it; it's just that no consensus has ever been reached. It's just not part of the "revealed" doctrines of the faith.

In my experience there is not only no consensus on the details, but no details whatsoever. I have asked about what the soul, and the afterlife are on this forum over several years, and never got a detailed answer from anyone, consensus or no.
Its really quite ridiculous considering that the Christian faith relies almost in its entirety on a promise of something that is vaguely defined. The best answer so far was sonship who just said it must be viewed as positive (with not obtaining the promise being viewed as a negative).
So whatever it is, Christians just believe that God is going to do something positive. But since they will be dead by then, who cares?

I am not questioning God's wrath nor judgement, I do however question your understanding of the scriptures.

Then of the verses which I gave attention to, why don't you point explicitely where my errors were with those passages? Where does my logic fail specifically with THOSE passages ?

I read carefully your post. I enjoyed some of it. I intend to re-read it again. I have read much similar arguments about annhilationism. And I am aware that even some noted evangelicals of my generation like Clark Pinnock and John Stott (regular staples of the Christian college campus crowd of the 70s and 80s) have decided to turn against the doctrine of eternal perdition.

But I think to impress me you would have to examine the very passages that I refered to to point out my errors in reasoning.

Originally posted by twhitehead
In my experience there is not only no consensus on the details, but no details whatsoever. I have asked about what the soul, and the afterlife are on this forum over several years, and never got a detailed answer from anyone, consensus or no.
Its really quite ridiculous considering that the Christian faith relies almost in its entirety on a promise of so ...[text shortened]... ieve that God is going to do something positive. But since they will be dead by then, who cares?

In my experience there is not only no consensus on the details, but no details whatsoever. I have asked about what the soul, and the afterlife are on this forum over several years, and never got a detailed answer from anyone, consensus or no.

Well, of course, I fully admit many details are vague. But there are also many unambiguously clear details -- bodily resurrection, eternal life, no bodily pain, complete ecstasy.

Originally posted by sonship

I am not questioning God's wrath nor judgement, I do however question your understanding of the scriptures.

Then of the verses which I gave attention to, why don't you point explicitely where my errors were [b]with those passages? Where does my logic fail specifically with THOSE passages ?

I read carefully your post. I enjoyed ...[text shortened]... would have to examine the very passages that I refered to to point out my errors in reasoning.[/b]

I will, just need time. But you must realize that all your verses are from the book of Rev. and there are many figures of speech..... Thanks....🙂

Originally posted by sonship

I am not questioning God's wrath nor judgement, I do however question your understanding of the scriptures.

Then of the verses which I gave attention to, why don't you point explicitely where my errors were [b]with those passages? Where does my logic fail specifically with THOSE passages ?

I read carefully your post. I enjoyed ...[text shortened]... would have to examine the very passages that I refered to to point out my errors in reasoning.[/b]

Here is a commentary I have by J.Schoenheidt...it explains the phrase "forever and ever", which means ages to ages...you may find this interesting. Sorry, the Greek words were not recognized by RHP.



[b]Rev.14:11. “to ages of ages.” The Greek is αἰῶνας αἰώνων αἰών; literally, “to ages of ages.”
This is a hyperbole, an overstatement. The wording is similar to Revelation 20:10, see the
commentary on that verse.
“day and night.” The meaning of this phrase can be seen by noticing how it is
used in other verses. Paul preached “night and day” to the Thessalonians (1 Thess. 2:9),
and later prayed for them “night and day” (1 Thess. 3:10). First, we see it does not
necessarily mean “constantly,” although it could in the context of future torment. Second,
it does not mean it goes on forever. Both Paul’s preaching for the Thessalonians, and his
prayers to see them, came to an end at some point. Similarly, the person who sows seed
in the ground sleeps and gets up “night and day” while the seed is growing (Mark 4:27).
In this example, as with the one involving Paul, the phrase “day and night” does not mean
he sleeps and rises all day every day, but rather that there is a general pattern of sleeping
and rising. Furthermore, there is an end to his activity. Another example is when Satan is
said to be in heaven accusing the brothers “day and night” (Rev. 12:10), but we know that
there were times he was on earth, not in heaven, so the phrase does not necessarily mean
all day every day, and we know Satan’s accusations will come to an end. The point the
verse is making is that those thrown into Gehenna have no guarantee of rest, and likely
will have no rest at all, either day or night, until they are consumed and annihilated.[b/]