15 Apr 13
Originally posted by SuzianneAnd it burns burns burns,
Ron, this is just wrong.
You cannot just claim that we say God is lying when we say there will not be 'eternal torment' in the Lake of Fire. We're not saying God is lying. We are saying that you and zillions of other, otherwise thoughtful Christians are reading stuff into the Bible that is not necessarily there.
The Bible says that the 'Lake of Fire ...[text shortened]... e another espousing Annihilation. I thought I was the only one here.
the lake of fire, the lake of fire.
Cue trumpets......
15 Apr 13
Originally posted by galveston75No idea G.
I've always been curious as to where ones think this lake of fire is actually at if it were truly real? Has anyone ever seen it? Is it here on earth or on another planet?
Could do with it over here sometimes.
Gets very cold at night. Not this time of year
but between late October and late March.
I had a bottle gas heater in my apartment and my
Landlord said to me, "you can't have that in here".
"My building insurance inspector won't allow it".
So he gave me this 3 bar electric fire.
Damn thing was useless. I gave it away.
You'd think the power company had moved
in with me looking at the bills.
15 Apr 13
Originally posted by johnnylongwoodyLol. I could use some heat on my feet right now. Too cold here still for April.
No idea G.
Could do with it over here sometimes.
Gets very cold at night. Not this time of year
but between late October and late March.
I had a bottle gas heater in my apartment and my
Landlord said to me, "you can't have that in here".
"My building insurance inspector won't allow it".
So he gave me this 3 bar electric fire.
...[text shortened]... gave it away.
You'd think the power company had moved
in with me looking at the bills.
15 Apr 13
Originally posted by galveston75Cold? In Texas?
Lol. I could use some heat on my feet right now. Too cold here still for April.
You are in Texas right? I thought that was one of the hottest states
in the USA. It's the middle of April. It's not as if it was winter time.
You better get yourself a good woman to keep you warm.
15 Apr 13
Originally posted by johnnylongwoodyI'm from there but waaaaay up in Vancouver wa now.
Cold? In Texas?
You are in Texas right? I thought that was one of the hottest states
in the USA. It's the middle of April. It's not as if it was winter time.
You better get yourself a good woman to keep you warm.
16 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipI will gladly explain my beliefs concerning Revelation and the Lake of Fire to you, but it will have to wait until tomorrow morning, as I am already past my bedtime.
Do you really think we are putting words in the mouth of God by quoting
[b]Revelation 20:10 ?
[/b]
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16 Apr 13
2 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterFirst one has to see that the passages on eternal perdition exist in the text of the original Greek New Testament. Secondly the character of God is not smeared by eternal perdition.
I don't hold eternal punishment against any Christian. They will find out someday anyway. But what bothers me is that it smears the character of God, who is good, kind, he even says the rain falls on the just and unjust. He is love, and yes he is just. But I do not believe eternal torture is true justice, and I do not think God does either. Just my opinion and also held by many bible scholars.
Not in the Old Testament or the New:
"A God of truth WITHOUT iniquity; just and right is He:" (Deut. 32:4)
In smiting Israel and her captivity God remained JUST - "Howbeit You are just in all that is brought upon us; for You have done right, but we have done wickedly." (Neh. 9:33; comp. Zeph. 3:5; Isa. 45:21)
"The Lord is righteous in ALL His ways, and holy in ALL His works." (Psa. 145:17)
Not in the New Testament:
" O Righteous Father, the world has not known You ..." (John 17:25)
"Great and marvelous are Your works Lord God Almighty; JUST and TRUE are Your ways You king of nations." (Rev. 14:3)
As God is righteous, He hates evil. We Christians are to love what God loves and also hate what God hates (Rev. 2:6). As Ruler of all He is the maker of laws. These laws have righteous penalties which are already affixed and published. If God is True and Just then penalties must be executed. He must follow through if the guilty will not avail themselves to His gracious offer of salvation.
"You are not a God which has pleasure in wickedness; neither shall evil dwell with You. The foolish shall not stand in Your sight; You HATE ALL WORKS OF INIQUITY. You shall destroy them that speak leasing [lying]; The Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man" (Psa. 5:4-6).
"The Lord tries the righteous; but the wicked and him that loves violence, His soul hates .." (Psa. 11:5)
All the unjust are an abomination to the Lord (Deut.25:13-16; Prov. 3:32; 6:16; 9:1)
Eternal perdition does not smear the character of God. It offends the guilty of transgressing His eternal authority. He has made provision for salvation in that He "so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" that His Son rather than the sinner would come under the judgment of God on our behalf.
Loving righteousness supremely, God cannot but hate with a corresponding and like hatred. That is an infinite displeasure.
This infinite displeasure will be felt without end upon the unforgiven. So it behooves man to seek the avenue of divine forgiveness.
When this day of mercy is over God intends to manifest the awfulness of His justice against the wicked. Yes, in this day of mercy His sun indeed rises on all the people of the world. Indeed His rain upon the righteous and the unrighteous. This is true. For they are still in the world which God SO LOVED.
Look though at the fate of "every soul of man that does evil" (Rom. 2:7-9) - "wrath and fury".
As the salvation of the saved is to display His power for good, so His power to inflict misery upon His foes will also be manifested (Rom. 9:22,23) . His sinless Son - spotless in obedience had to suffer unto death for the sinner's redemption. Our being saved if we believe is an indisputable emblem of His faithfulness and His justice. His grace could not reign until atonement should be accomplished in its infinite adaquacy.
Therefore it is right that we should fear God, even as believers, along with our love for God - (Luke 11:4,5; Matt. 10:28; 5:27-30)
16 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipYou put an awful lot of trust and faith in that book don't you?
First one has to see that the passages on eternal perdition exist in the text of the original Greek New Testament. Secondly [b] the character of God is not smeared by eternal perdition.
Not in the Old Testament or the New:
"A God of truth WITHOUT iniquity; just and right is He:" (Deut. 32:4)
In smiting Israel and her captivity G ...[text shortened]... , along with our love for God - (Luke 11:4,5; Matt. 10:28; 5:27-30) [/b]
Did you ever stop to think you might be wrong?
Suppose the whole book is wrong? What then?
Will you feel dumb looking at the sky at the end
of the world and the only thing up there coming
to greet you is a speeding asteroid several
miles wide?
16 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipNo, I think it is a far worse sin to put words into the mouth of God, to change the meaning of Scripture. The Bible itself cautions against this at the end of Revelation.
Do you really think we are putting words in the mouth of God by quoting
[b]Revelation 20:10 ?
No words are being falsly added to the Greek Text of the ...[text shortened]... and the Scripture never spoke of eternal punishment.[/b]
No, I think it is a far worse sin to put words into the mouth of God, to change the meaning of Scripture. The Bible itself cautions against this at the end of Revelation.
" Do you really think we are putting words in the mouth of God by quoting
[b]Revelation 20:10 ?
No words are being falsly added to the Greek Text of the New Testament. The only recourse for you is to say the interpretation is not right.
But then the interpretation you propose says the opposite of what the Scripture says. It says " ... and they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever". You are saying it should be understood in the opposite - " ... and they shall [NOT] be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Don't you also have a sober caution within to not interpret it to mean the opposite of what it clearly SAYS ?"[/b]
Let's take a look at three verses here.
Revelation 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Revelation 14:11
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
Revelation 20:15
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
As I know you are well aware, Rev. 20:10 speaks of what will happen to Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet. These are the chief antagonists of God, ramping up their rebellious efforts in the last days, and as such, I'd say they are completely deserving of eternal torment in the Lake of Fire, as the verse says, "for ever and ever".
Rev. 14:11 speaks of those "who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name". It speaks of their torment in the Lake of Fire "for ever and ever". Again, a righteous end for those who cave in to the demands of the AntiChrist during the last days, denying God and Christ, resulting in untold numbers of Christian deaths.
Rev. 20:15, however, is different. What is missing when the verse speaks of "whosoever was not found written in the book of life"? Like the other two verses, it says they will be "cast into the lake of fire". What is missing is the same reference to "for ever and ever" that highlights the other two verses. When compared side-by-side like this, the difference stands out and is unmistakable.
As you asked above, "Don't you also have a sober caution within to not interpret it to mean the opposite of what it clearly SAYS ?" Yes, I do. THIS is what I was talking about when I mentioned "putting words into the mouth of God". I do not *assume* the words "for ever and ever" in the last verse, like you and others do.
Lastly, you mention Jesus speaking the words of Matthew 10:28. I find it amazing that you bring this up. Well, let's take a look at the entire verse.
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
What do you suppose this means? What could this *possibly* mean? Jesus speaks of fearing Him which is "able to destroy both soul and body". Both soul and body. Does this not sound like Annihilation to you? What would be the point of eternal torment "for ever and ever", if both the soul and body were destroyed?