John 3:16

Originally posted by twhitehead
No, 'sermons' = deliberately not answering the questions asked but rather going of on a preaching spree about what you believe the Bible tells you about something quite different.
Now I could be totally wrong, and you may believe you are enthusiastically answering my questions.

I think "sermon" for you means expounding the Bible.
I think if I give an explanation of spirit and soul and body and back it up with biblical passages that constitiutes for you sermonizing.

If you were not so much an anti-theist rather than just an atheist you might get something. But I think you are really an ANTI-theist.

The more I explain in any manner, any style, any tone, you will insist nothing has been explained. So we are wasting each other's time.

Don't pretend anymore objective curiosity with me when all you're hunting for is justification for your own anti-theistic evangelism.

Originally posted by sonship
I think "sermon" for you means expounding the Bible.
I think if I give an explanation of spirit and soul and body and back it up with biblical passages that constitiutes for you sermonizing.

No, sermonising to me, means expounding the Bible unnecessarily or uncalled for. In other words, I believe you are not just trying to answer my questions but get some Bible expounding in edgewise. Thats just the way it seems, although I admit I may be totally wrong.

Originally posted by twhitehead
No, sermonising to me, means expounding the Bible unnecessarily or uncalled for. In other words, I believe you are not just trying to answer my questions but get some Bible expounding in edgewise. Thats just the way it seems, although I admit I may be totally wrong.

I was going to go on and develop from the stated fact of spirit and soul and body. I was going to explain WHY there are these three parts of man.

The spirit has a function to interact with the spiritual realm.
The soul has a function to interact with the realm of other minds and other souls.
The human body has a function to interact with the physical world.

Three directions, three functions, all together make up the human being who lives in three planes or (for lack of better expression) three dimensions.

These things take time to develop. Perhaps you would not try to explain quantum coupling in a short post. Perhaps you would build it up on a few successive posts.

And you should not assume 25 words or less is going to supply adaquate explanations of some of these deeper matters.

But I am pretty sure that you are on the attack. And the anti-theist attack lurks behind the posture of innocent objective curiosity.

I do not like to throw the things I have learned down a black hole of hostile skepticism. You deem me a lunatic who is wasting time. Let's just keep it that way then.

although I admit I may be totally wrong.

Some humility is noted on your part. But I still regard you as a clever rattlesnake.

So if I'm a preaching lunatic to you, let's just keep it that way.
I'll bear that analysis for my Lord's sake gladly.

Originally posted by sonship
I was going to explain WHY there are these three parts of man.

And I am totally uninterested in WHY you think there are these three parts of man.
I want to know if you can resolve the contradictions your beliefs entail.

Originally posted by sonship
I'll bear that analysis for my Lord's sake gladly.

Why would you be bearing it for someone else's sake?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Why would you be bearing it for someone else's sake?

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Originally posted by sonship
23579q ahahrop adf afsh;lha aarqwuriop

Your best answer yet 🙂
Short, and to the point, and no unnecessary verses.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The verse you use is for Christians, not unbelievers. Not every human being is born with body soul and spirit.
Body, yes. Soul, yes. The body is evident, the soul is simply what animates the body. It is life itself. Animals and humans have soul life. Spirit is what a human being receives when he/she gets "born again".
Unbelievers have no spirit, just b cast them into the Lake of fire, where they will burn up and turn to ashes and be no more.

checkbaiter, you wrote to me:

The verse you use is for Christians, not unbelievers. Not every human being is born with body soul and spirit.

Every human is born with a spirit and soul and body. We all came into the world with a damaged human spirit which is deadened. I like to use the word comatose.

I would not say that the unbeliever has no spirit. I would say that in practicality he has no spirit because of its comatose and deadened state which needs regeneration.

I am aware that Jude speaks of those having not spirit.
But I think that means it is not functioning normally in its damaged state.

Body, yes. Soul, yes. The body is evident, the soul is simply what animates the body. It is life itself. Animals and humans have soul life. Spirit is what a human being receives when he/she gets "born again".

The birth of the spirit is actually the beginning of resurrection of their entire being. It is not that they possess what they didn't have. It is that they are resurrected first in the kernel and innmost part of their being.

Unbelievers have no spirit, just body and soul.

I don't think this is right.

As long as they have a conscience I think it is evidence of a human spirit.
Notice that I came short always of saying that the human spirit was altogether dead. I came close though. I said the spirit is comatose or deadened.

Before we debate why we should regard the unbeliever as not having or having a spirit, what would you submit as evidence that the unbeliever has no spirit at all ?

When an unbeliever or "natural man" dies, the body decays and the soul is lost with the last breath. They, for all intents and purposes, cease to exist.
At the "Judgement" it is not a hard thing for God to restore these people and then cast them into the Lake of fire, where they will burn up and turn to ashes and be no more.

If I recall rightly, I found that the reasons I gave refuting annhilationism you did not offer counter arguments to.

So I have to regard this last paragraph as mostly just assertion of what I think I refuted in another post. Maybe it was also another thread. I looked for your response and rebuttal. I didn't see it.

So I am afraid I just have to take this last paragraph as just a re-asserted matter, the evidences contradicting the belief not addressed yet, I think.

Anyway, what do you think of this short video on simply the question of Is Man Only Material? with Alvin Plantingo ?

YouTube

Originally posted by sonship
checkbaiter, you wrote to me:

The verse you use is for Christians, not unbelievers. Not every human being is born with body soul and spirit.

Every human is born with a spirit and soul and body. We all came into the world with a damaged human spirit which is deadened. I like to use the word comatose.

I would not say that the ...[text shortened]... Material? with Alvin Plantingo ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekWgk1jKShI[/b]

The reasons myself and others in our church, believe unbelievers, or as the bible calls them "natural man" is that the Christian would then have 2 spirits. The one they were supposedly born with and holy spirit. When Jesus instructed the Apostles, he "breathed" on them. Spirit or pneuma is like the wind. I don't fully understand it, but I know when a person confesses Jesus as Lord in their life, this is when holy spirit is given. This spirit enables them to speak in tongues for example, or operate the rest of the manifestations. They can understand spiritual matters where before, they were unable.
The video was very interesting, I have to think about it. I remember the discussion we were having, don't remember the thread. Sorry, but I got busy. I am in the process of selling our house.
I have to read some of my materials to find specific verses, so will have to get back to this later..

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] This is a hyperbole, an overstatement. The wording is similar to Revelation 20:10, see the commentary on that verse. “day and night.” The meaning of this phrase can be seen by noticing how it is used in other verses. Paul preached “night and day” to the Thessalonians (1 Thess. 2:9),
and later prayed for them “night and day” (1 Thess. 3:10). [/quot ...[text shortened]... y. And we will so praise Him eternally.

Okay, I found the thread, it was right here...

Rev 20:1-3
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
NKJV
I know that satan is bound for a thousand years, he was "in chains" then released. I don't think he was in the lake of fire yet. You are assuming that this book is in chronological order but I do not think it is. It is a very complex book, with many figures of speech.
Ezek 28:18-19
"You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever."'
NKJV
Here it says he will be turned to ashes and be no more...I do not think this will happen as fast as burning a piece of wood, I think it will take a long time...

Some Christians argue that annihilation is not a sufficient threat to stop people, and that the threat of burning forever is a more effective deterrent to sin. However, this is looking at Scripture the wrong way. God says that it is His “kindness” that leads people to repentance (Rom. 2:4), not His threats of death, although that might work, because it is programmed within mankind to do whatever it takes to stay alive. Apparently, the thought of not existing is more terrifying to most people than the thought of living even under horrible conditions. What God does do is set forth His great love in giving His Son, and encourage people to believe in him and have everlasting life
If God were trying to use the threat of eternal torment as a deterrent to sin, John 3:16 might read: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not burn forever, but have everlasting life.” And God could have made that plain in many other verses as well. The fact that the Bible simply says “perish” indicates that the unsaved will die, and thus exist no more. What faces those who refuse God’s gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is annihilation. They will be terminated, gone—history. And the rest of us, because of the grace of God and the work of Jesus Christ, will live happily ever after.

For those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, he has paid the price for their sin, and he will give them the gift of life in the age to come. Those who refuse to believe in him will pay the penalty for sin themselves. How? By dying forever in the lake of fire. Everlasting life is just that—life without end, and everlasting death is destruction without hope of recall—permanent extermination.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Okay, I found the thread, it was right here...

Rev 20:1-3
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and s ...[text shortened]... end, and everlasting death is destruction without hope of recall—permanent extermination.

What you write here, about the threat of death, makes me wonder how Adam and Eve thought of death. God said they would surely die if they ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, while Satan said they would not surely die. Whatever they believed, it was not enough of a deterent to prevent them from committing that sin, nor does what we believe today prevent us from sinning. It makes me wonder, if we, in general, just don't believe God and think He is too forgiving to carry out such a threat. If God is a liar, like Satan says, then perhaps God does not mean to give anyone who repents everlasting life either.

Originally posted by RJHinds
What you write here, about the threat of death, makes me wonder how Adam and Eve thought of death. God said they would surely die if they ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, while Satan said they would not surely die. Whatever they believed, it was not enough of a deterent to prevent them from committing that sin, nor does what we believe today ...[text shortened]... Satan says, then perhaps God does not mean to give anyone who repents everlasting life either.

I don't think this comparison applies to today. When God said you will surely die, what died? Adam lived to 930 years. Was it his spirit that he lost? I think after the fall he was cursed with the rest of mankind with just body and soul(breath life). He lost that "connection" with God.
Remember Adam was deceived by a brilliant and cunning angel of light. Adam until then did not even have a sin nature. His deception was that he would be just like God, I don't think he considered death. Maybe he did, just my opinion.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The reasons myself and others in our church, believe unbelievers, or as the bible calls them "natural man" is that the Christian would then have 2 spirits. The one they were supposedly born with and holy spirit. When Jesus instructed the Apostles, he "breathed" on them. Spirit or pneuma is like the wind. I don't fully understand it, but I know when a per ead some of my materials to find specific verses, so will have to get back to this later..

The reasons myself and others in our church, believe unbelievers, or as the bible calls them "natural man" is that the Christian would then have 2 spirits.

Yes they would have two spirits. They have two spirits mingled together. They are "joined to the Lord" in the mingling of the two spirits. They would have a mingled spirit. They would have the Holy Spirit mingled with their human spirit.

This is why 1 Corinthians 6:17 says "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit"

The man who is "joined to the Lord" has his regenerated human spirit united with the captital S Holy Spirit to produce a mingling of the two to become "one spirit". Part of our being actually becomes God. And God becomes us in virtue of our two spirits being mingled.

Now how do I know that within me is both my human spirit and the Holy Spirit joined together ?

Consider Romans 8:16 which is definitely written to Christian believers.

"The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are the children of God."

In this verse you have a co-witnessing going on. Here the Holy Spirit co-witnesses with the human spirit that the believer is one of the children of God. This is two spirits. This is the Holy Spirit and this is the human spirit co-witnessing together. So we Christians do have two spirits and one is God Himself and the other is our innermost spiritual being.

As long as we have the Holy Spirit witnessing together within us that we are in God's family sharing His divine life as children, we indeed have two spirits joined and mingled together.

The one they were supposedly born with and holy spirit. When Jesus instructed the Apostles, he "breathed" on them. Spirit or pneuma is like the wind. I don't fully understand it, but I know when a person confesses Jesus as Lord in their life, this is when holy spirit is given. This spirit enables them to speak in tongues for example, or operate the rest of the manifestations. They can understand spiritual matters where before, they were unable.

Keep in mind that the Holy Spirit is "the Lord". For Paul writes - "Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17) . So the Holy Spirit is the Lord Jesus Himself in His pneumatic form. The Lord is the Spirit.

Keep in mind also that Paul says that this Lord is with the human spirit of the believer -

"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Timothy 4:22)

If the Lord is WITH my human spirit then my human spirit has not been made to not exist. It has been enlivened and is mingled with the Lord. So the Lord Jesus as a universalized Godnized Person is with my spirit.

This regenerated human spirit with the Lord as the Holy Spirit also has much to do with what Paul calls "the inner man". That is a man deep within our being as a realm and sphere into which we need to be strengthened.

"That He [the Father] would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man." (Eph. 3:16)

There is an "inner man" which related to Christ the Lord being joined to our human spirit and being WITH our human spirit. And this realm is new to us. We are not use to living in this realm. So Paul's prayer is that we Christians would be strengthened to log more time in that realm, in the realm of our "inner man".

The natural men that Paul was speaking about were Christians in the church in Corinth. They were brothers and sisters in Christ. But their living in the inner man was inadaquate. They needed to become spiritual men by living according to the new inner man and being strengthened into that realm to STAY.

The video was very interesting, I have to think about it. I remember the discussion we were having, don't remember the thread. Sorry, but I got busy. I am in the process of selling our house.
I have to read some of my materials to find specific verses, so will have to get back to this later..

I did not see the video yet.
We can trade sources. I recommend - http://www.regenerated.net/

Originally posted by twhitehead
Your best answer yet 🙂
Short, and to the point, and no unnecessary verses.

And you needed no interpretation.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by sonship
I think "sermon" for you means expounding the Bible.
I think if I give an explanation of spirit and soul and body and back it up with biblical passages that constitiutes for you sermonizing.

If you were not so much an anti-theist rather than just an atheist you might get something. But I think you are really an ANTI-theist.

The more I explain in ...[text shortened]... with me when all you're hunting for is justification for your own anti-theistic evangelism.

Yes.

About time some other Christian here picked up on this.