14 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipKeep in mind too that God breathed His spirit into the material body of Adam, who was made of the dust of the ground, and then Adam became a living soul.The reasons myself and others in our church, believe unbelievers, or as the bible calls them "natural man" is that the Christian would then have 2 spirits.
Yes they [b]would have two spirits. They have two spirits mingled together. They are "joined to the Lord" in the mingling of the two spirits. They would have a mingl ...[text shortened]... an trade sources. I recommend - http://www.regenerated.net/
At death the material body will return to the dust from which it came and the spirit will return to God.
14 Apr 13
Originally posted by RJHindsRon, this is just wrong.
What you write here, about the threat of death, makes me wonder how Adam and Eve thought of death. God said they would surely die if they ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, while Satan said they would not surely die. Whatever they believed, it was not enough of a deterent to prevent them from committing that sin, nor does what we believe today ...[text shortened]... Satan says, then perhaps God does not mean to give anyone who repents everlasting life either.
You cannot just claim that we say God is lying when we say there will not be 'eternal torment' in the Lake of Fire. We're not saying God is lying. We are saying that you and zillions of other, otherwise thoughtful Christians are reading stuff into the Bible that is not necessarily there.
The Bible says that the 'Lake of Fire' is eternal. Not the torment. I have no problem with Satan and his lieutenants facing 'eternal damnation' in the Lake of Fire, but I find it difficult to believe that this is in store for those regular souls who are not (for whatever reason) 'washed clean in the blood of the Lamb'. And no, God is not 'too forgiving' to assign all sinners to their just rewards, we just think this 'eternal torment' reward is not just. Not when there is an alternative. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." We feel that He who loved the world this much would not send them to any 'eternal torment' when He can just as easily snuff them out like putting out a candle. There is no Love in 'eternal torment'. Not for them, and certainly not for those who love them who have to see them go.
This does not mean we think God is 'lying'. Just like we're not saying God is 'lying' when we say it took far longer than 6 24-hour days to create the universe. This 'lying' thing is what you Christians who believe in some fixed, literal reading of the Bible always trot out to counter these arguments held by more liberal, thinking Christians.
I'm actually glad to see another espousing Annihilation. I thought I was the only one here.
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14 Apr 13
I don't hold eternal punishment against any Christian. They will find out someday anyway. But what bothers me is that it smears the character of God, who is good, kind, he even says the rain falls on the just and unjust. He is love, and yes he is just. But I do not believe eternal torture is true justice, and I do not think God does either. Just my opinion and also held by many bible scholars.
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15 Apr 13
4 edits
Okay, I found the thread, it was right here...
Rev 20:1-3
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
NKJV
That will be the time of the millennial kingdom. This is following the second coming of Christ and before the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth.
Satan is bound. But while he is bound some of his dupes preceed him into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:19,20) .
"And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war with Him who sits on the horse and with His army. (v.19)
And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet, who in his presence had done the signs ... These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. (v.20)
This is immediately after the battle of Armegeddon. While Satan is bound the Antichrist and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire.
Afterwards, that is after 1,000 years they are joined by Satan. Even though they two were cast "alive" in the lake of fire, the THREE of them, after a period of 1,000 years "will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (20:10b)
If the Antichrist and the false prophet had been annhilated then the Bible would not say "and THEY will be tormented ...". The plural pronoun they proves that this event - "And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire ... where also the beast and the false prophet were ..." means the beast and false prophet partook of a 1,000 year long tormenting and are now joined by their deceiving master the devil.
How do you feel reaching back to the Old Testament book of Ezekiel to try to make obscure such a clear truth ? Do you feel right refering to Ezekiel 28 to be the last word in the Bible on Satan rather letting the last book of the Bible, Revelation be the last word ?
I think we should understand that Revelation is the very clear final word on Satan's destiny.
I know that satan is bound for a thousand years, he was "in chains" then released. I don't think he was in the lake of fire yet. You are assuming that this book is in chronological order but I do not think it is. It is a very complex book, with many figures of speech.
I agree that it is complex. I agree surely that there is much symbolism.
However these expressions are chonologically very clear -
"And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison." (20:7)
This is chronologically very clear. When the millennial kingdom of 1,000 years is completed Satan is loosed from his prison. How can we misunderstand " ... when the thousand years are completed ..." ?
And it is also very clear that following the release of Satan "when the thousand years are completed" in verse 7 his activitiess and final fate are covered in following verses 8,9 and 10.
Can you possibly misunderstand the chronology of verse 10 following verse 7?
"And the devil ... was cast into the lake of fire ... where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
One has to work pretty hard at misunderstanding the rather clear chronology of these events.
Ezekiel, speaking both of the Antichrist and of the ultimate Satanic king behind him, can be contained in the prophecy of Revelation. I don't think anything in Ezekiel 28 saves either Antichrist or the Devil behind Antichrist from the fate clearly spelled out in Revelation.
Ezek 28:18-19 "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you. 19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever."'
NKJV
But would it not be a fact that Satan would be no more forever, practically speaking, if he is throne into the lake of fire forever and ever ?
And would it not be a fact that if some King of Tyre or Antichrist is brought to ashes in the battle of Armegeddon, that he would be "no more forever" practically to the world AFTER he is thrown into the lake of fire ?
We may assume he is brought to ashes in this New Testament passage also =
"And then the lawless one will be revealed (whom the Lord Jesus will slay by the breath of His mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of His coming) .." ( 2 Thess. 2:8)
Though he is brought to nothing, though slain, though brought to ashes upon the earth this does not exempt his from being cast alive into the lake of fire for tormenting forever and ever along with "THEY" of Rev. 20:10.
I think we should understand the Revelation prediction to encompass itself and Ezekiel's prophecy as well. I do not think it is proper to use the Ezekiel passage to negate the Revelation passage.
Here it says he will be turned to ashes and be no more...I do not think this will happen as fast as burning a piece of wood, I think it will take a long time...
I stated before that the expression "forever and ever" refers to Satan and Antichrist's torment in one passage and "forever and ever" refers to Christ's reign in another passage.
If you begin to tamper with the expression concerning Satan's punishment nothing stops someone else of employing the same logic to deny that Christ will reign forever and ever.
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever." (Rev. 11:15)
Satan is punished "forever and ever" while Jesus Christ reigns over the earth "forever and ever."
Furthermore some human beings joined the punishing fire prepared for the devil and his angels in Matthew 25:41:
"And the King will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
And the concluding verse in this section sums up the destiny of two groups -
"And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (v.46)
Not notice verse 41 says "the eternal fire" and verse 46 says "eternal punishment" .
So the eternal fire is the eternal punishment "prepared for the devil and his angels" . And the goats (human beings cursed) join him in that terrible fate.
It is also significant that the final contrast is not between "eternal life" and "eternal DEATH". Rather the juxtaposition is between "eternal PUNISHEMNT" against "eternal LIFE".
Read it again:
"And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (v.46)
It is punishment verses life there. It is not death verses life there.
However latter the lake of tormenting is also called "the second death".
Some Christians argue that annihilation is not a sufficient threat to stop people, and that the threat of burning forever is a more effective deterrent to sin. However, this is looking at Scripture the wrong way. God says that it is His “kindness” that leads people to repentance (Rom. 2:4), not His threats of death, ...
I agree but I think these matters are not really relevant. It is irrelevant to what God says that He will do.
And we are told not only to behold the kindness of God but the severity of God as well -
"Behold then the KINDNESS AND SEVERITY of God ..." (Romans 11:22 my emphasis)
We are to behold not only His severity or not only His kindness, but BOTH attributes. "Behold the kindness and severity of God ..."
We have to remember that both the strongest words of divine mercy, love and forgiveness came from the same Person who uttered the most fiersome words of divine judgment.
Both words came from the same mouth, that of Jesus Christ.
15 Apr 13
Originally posted by SuzianneYou say, "The Bible says that the 'Lake of Fire' is eternal. Not the torment."
Ron, this is just wrong.
You cannot just claim that we say God is lying when we say there will not be 'eternal torment' in the Lake of Fire. We're not saying God is lying. We are saying that you and zillions of other, otherwise thoughtful Christians are reading stuff into the Bible that is not necessarily there.
The Bible says that the 'Lake of Fire ...[text shortened]... e another espousing Annihilation. I thought I was the only one here.
The Holy Bible does say that those cast into the lake of fire will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. So what is the difference to you?
You say, "I'm actually glad to see another espousing Annihilation. I thought I was the only one here."
Where is it written in scripture that says Satan and his spirit demons will be annihilated or that those souls that are not found written in the book of life are annihilated?
15 Apr 13
Originally posted by RJHindsOk I'm back. I said I was leaving the forums which I did for a time but I've been watching and this one Ron is going to far. I think I know what you are thinking but to actually write it is different. I don't think you'll see my point but as we just spoke earlier about a few subjects, this is an example of what I mean. The Bible gives many examples of wisdom and advice on how we are to teach to others if one is doing just as Jesus did. He never said "I think, or it is my opinion, or it could be this way or I wonder how it is" but he always spoke with truth and never deviated from it. Those truiths are in the Bible and we have to ask God to let us see them, not come up with "what we think them to be".
What you write here, about the threat of death, makes me wonder how Adam and Eve thought of death. God said they would surely die if they ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, while Satan said they would not surely die. Whatever they believed, it was not enough of a deterent to prevent them from committing that sin, nor does what we believe today ...[text shortened]... Satan says, then perhaps God does not mean to give anyone who repents everlasting life either.
We have to be that exact and never misguide any with our opinions if you are going to teach Christianity.
Now that being said Adam and Eve knew what death was as they had seen the wildlife die around them as they would have naturally seen.
They knew it meant no more life with nothing existing afterwards.
The only thing the Bible says is that from all life including all animals is that their spirit or life force goes back to God as he is the giver of life to all things. All life is a gift from him and he takes that back when anything dies that has a spirit of life in it.
The Bible clearly says that when humans die, all thoughts, plans, etc, end. Nothing consciense lives on after death until that person is resurrected from death and has a life force returned to them by God. We even saw that with Jesus. He had no thoughts or knowledge of anything while he was dead. It wasn't until his Father Jehovah resurrected him that he was once again a conscience, living being.
So the point with Adam and Eve is God made it very clear what the consequences would be if they sinned. They did and they did die within one of God's days which he tells us is a thousand years to us and Adam never made it to another of God's days.
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15 Apr 13
Originally posted by galveston75Welcome back G.
Ok I'm back. I said I was leaving the forums which I did for a time but I've been watching and this one Ron is going to far. I think I know what you are thinking but to actually write it is different. I don't think you'll see my point but as we just spoke earlier about a few subjects, this is an example of what I mean. The Bible gives many examples of wi ...[text shortened]... e tells us is a thousand years to us and Adam never made it to another of God's days.
They did and they did die within one of God's days which he tells us is a thousand years to us and Adam never made it to another of God's days.
Interesting, I never heard that before and makes sense.
15 Apr 13
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Originally posted by checkbaiterThanks. And yes he died at over 900 years old but that is less then the thousand year day that God's time table runs on. In fact we know one man lived longer but still never made it to that thousand year mark.
Welcome back G.
[b]They did and they did die within one of God's days which he tells us is a thousand years to us and Adam never made it to another of God's days.
Interesting, I never heard that before and makes sense.[/b]
Originally posted by galveston75There are times when I feel and believe I am being led by the Holy Spirit. However, most of the time I write what I think and believe based on my own study and understanding of the scriptures. So I can't be positively sure that I understand everything written in the Holy Bible accurately. I can only do my best. If anyone is able to show me from the scriptures where my understanding of them is wrong, then I will change my opinion, as I have done in the past.
Ok I'm back. I said I was leaving the forums which I did for a time but I've been watching and this one Ron is going to far. I think I know what you are thinking but to actually write it is different. I don't think you'll see my point but as we just spoke earlier about a few subjects, this is an example of what I mean. The Bible gives many examples of wi e tells us is a thousand years to us and Adam never made it to another of God's days.
However, I do not have any confidence in your Watchtower Society as a source of accurate knowledge on the scriptures. I may agree with a few of their teachings, however, I believe most of their teachings are not orthodox Christian teachings and are completely wrong.
Just because you do not like my methods of teaching, does not make what I teach about Christianity and the Holy Bible wrong. So you need to come up with a more logical reason to declare what I teach is wrong, before I will change my mind.
I disagree with you on life after death and it appears to me that Jesus disagrees with you too. The apostle Paul writes about the body, soul, and spirit of man. See this link below. I just skimmed over it but it makes reference to what I wrote about Paul's view. The parable of the rich man and the begger gives an example of the view of Jesus about life after death.
http://bible.org/seriespage/man-trinity-spirit-soul-body
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15 Apr 13
1 edit
The Bible says that the 'Lake of Fire' is eternal. Not the torment. I have no problem with Satan and his lieutenants facing 'eternal damnation' in the Lake of Fire,
Suzianne,
How do you feel about Revelation 14:11 ?
"And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever ..."
Here is it not only the smoke of the lake of fire goes up but "the smoke of their tormenting" which goes up forever.
It is very difficult for me to derive any other meaning from this except the tormenting continues the same way as the smoke continues.
Don't you have to work hard to get a meaning that their tormenting stops but the smoke of their tormenting continues to go up ?
I would ask you also to recall the words of Jesus that we disciples should not be ashamed of either Him or of His words.
"For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man also will be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." (Mark 8:38)
I look to the Lord that I would receive grace not to be ashamed of Him or of His words. And some of His words concern fearing God who has the power to punish beyond all that man can inflict.
I am concerned that if I would be ashamed of His words I might receive discipline of some kind during that millennial kingdom age.
Now is the time to pray for the unbelievers earnestly. And more so living by His indwelling grace so that our prayers reach the throne of God and He hears us.
15 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipNo, I think it is a far worse sin to put words into the mouth of God, to change the meaning of Scripture. The Bible itself cautions against this at the end of Revelation.The Bible says that the 'Lake of Fire' is eternal. Not the torment. I have no problem with Satan and his lieutenants facing 'eternal damnation' in the Lake of Fire,
Suzianne,
How do you feel about [b]Revelation 14:11 ?
"And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever ..."
Here is it not only t ...[text shortened]... by His indwelling grace so that our prayers reach the throne of God and He hears us.[/b]
I am NOT 'ashamed of God or of His words'. What I AM saying is that you and other literalists ascribe meaning to Scripture that is not there.
I do not see how Christians can actively take God's word and give it meaning that is not there. How many sins are committed by those who add to the words of God, who relish the idea of unrepentant sinners being fried up for ALL eternity? That's a long, long time. I'm saying you have to work hard to get a meaning that this applies to every single sinner.
How do you feel about [b]Revelation 14:11 ?
"And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever ..."
Here is it not only the smoke of the lake of fire goes up but "the smoke of their tormenting" which goes up forever.
It is very difficult for me to derive any other meaning from this except the tormenting continues the same way as the smoke continues.[/b]
Are you kidding me? Let's have the entirety of this verse, please.
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
Do you see for whom this torment is fated? Those "who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." This is another 'special case', like Satan and the Beast and the False Prophet. This is not the fate of the average, run-of-the-mill unrepentant sinner, the vast majority of sinners awaiting judgement.
I'm saying that someone, sometime in the past, has brought forth this idea that God is willing to torment his creation "for ever and ever" and a large segment of Christians have seized upon this idea as some sort of twisted fear game, as well as a large number who think it's actually a good idea and just can't wait to see it happen. I would remind you that even the Nicene Creed, which actually lists the common beliefs of Christians, does not ever mention an 'everlasting torment' for unrepentant sinners. Clearly, this current fad was added to the Christian canon since then.
15 Apr 13
Originally posted by SuzianneI agree with you that this idea of humans being tortured forever is a man made idea. If one goes back and studies the beliefs of the Babylonians you'll see it there. So this thought had being nurtured by a nation that was not in approval by God at all on any level.
No, I think it is a far worse sin to put words into the mouth of God, to change the meaning of Scripture. The Bible itself cautions against this at the end of Revelation.
I am NOT 'ashamed of God or of His words'. What I AM saying is that you and other literalists ascribe meaning to Scripture that is not there.
I do not see how Christians can active ...[text shortened]... . Clearly, this current fad was added to the Christian canon since then.
The Bible cleary says what the condition of the dead are and that is dead with no conscienceness. It also says that "the wages of sin is death", not eternal torment.
So the Bible mentioning that someone or something is being burned forever is symbolic and simply means that it is totally destroyed, which fire does when it consumes an object. If something alive were to be throne into a fire, it will die, not live on and will be totally destroyed. If someone or something is judged by God to never be allowed to exist again, that is symbolically described as being consumed by fire or what fire does to something.
And again these scriptures speak of many things being throne into this fire such as nations, governments, eventually satan, etc. So these things will ever exist again. And if one really see's it also says that "death" is throne into this burning lake. So this again is describing it will also never exist at all once God has cleansed the earth of all wicked things.
No where in the Bible does it ever say that humans will be tortured forever by any means such as being burned over and over and over for eternity for sinning. Death erases all our sins and when the resurrection does start in the future, we all have second chance.
15 Apr 13
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Originally posted by RJHindsGive me a verse that says this, Ron.
The Holy Bible does say that those cast into the lake of fire will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. So what is the difference to you?
Ok, wait. Before you do, let me ask you to show me where it says that 'every' sinner will be tormented 'for ever and ever'. Now I don't mean Satan, or the Beast, or the False Prophet, or the ones 'who worshipped the Beast or took his mark'. I mean all the rest of the sinners.
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15 Apr 13
No, I think it is a far worse sin to put words into the mouth of God, to change the meaning of Scripture. The Bible itself cautions against this at the end of Revelation.
Do you really think we are putting words in the mouth of God by quoting
Revelation 20:10 ?
No words are being falsly added to the Greek Text of the New Testament. The only recourse for you is to say the interpretation is not right.
But then the interpretation you propose says the opposite of what the Scripture says. It says " ... and they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever". You are saying it should be understood in the opposite - " ... and they shall [NOT] be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Don't you also have a sober caution within to not interpret it to mean the opposite of what it clearly SAYS ?
I am NOT 'ashamed of God or of His words'. What I AM saying is that you and other literalists ascribe meaning to Scripture that is not there.
So I should understand the meaning to be " ... and they shall [NOT] be tormented day and night forever and ever" ?
I feel ashamed at making such a twist in meaning of what is apparently rather clear.
I do not see how Christians can actively take God's word and give it meaning that is not there.
So do I. However you have to work harder and deriving annhilationism from Revelation 20:10 than taking it at face value. And when I dig deep into more in depth scholarship on the matter, however much I would like it to be something else, it simply is what it is.
Notice that the degree of rebellion is eventually SO DEEPLY rooted in the followers of the Antichrist that NOTHING compels them to repent ... nothing
Revelation 16:9 - "And men were burned with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, who has the authority over these plauges, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory."
Revelation 14:11 - "And they blasphemed the God of heaven for their pains and for their sores; and they did not repent of their works."
They derive more enjoyment from blaspheming God no matter WHAT, than repenting of their sinful works. They have been totally usurped by God's enemy. There is no hint of repentance.
How many sins are committed by those who add to the words of God, who relish the idea of unrepentant sinners being fried up for ALL eternity? That's a long, long time. I'm saying you have to work hard to get a meaning that this applies to every single sinner.
I agree that we cannot easily determine how God will deal with every single sinner. But this does not prevent us from clearly seeing the WORST possible outcome.
If you think that the result of going to the lake of fire could be varied and less severe in some case, logically I might agree. However, what we seem to be presented with is the worst possible scenario. And I for one am not curious to see if there is some kinder gentlier corner of the lake of fire.
God seems not to have told us much else but that the place itself is to be avoided at any cost. Maybe the followers of Antichrist and the beast will have it harder than some others. There is however, not much in Scripture I can point to to clearly prove that. I just have an intuitive sense as Abraham "Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly? (Gen. 18:25)
By the way. Did you know that even some Christians who are redeemed forever may be hurt by the second death ? In some cases after the second coming of Christ some saved believers will be so backslidden that God will give them a taste of what it would be to go to the lake of fire. They will temporarily be punished there and "hurt by the second death" (Rev. 2:11)
So this lake of fire, in some cases, will be used to hurt some extremely disobedient children of the Lord. That will a temporary dispnesational punishment of some who are eternally saved yet need discipline.
ss:
How do you feel about Revelation 14:11 ?
"And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever ..."
Here is it not only the smoke of the lake of fire goes up but "the smoke of their tormenting" which goes up forever.
It is very difficult for me to derive any other meaning from this except the tormenting continues the same way as the smoke continues.
suz:
Are you kidding me? Let's have the entirety of this verse, please.
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
Do you see for whom this torment is fated? Those "who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." This is another 'special case', like Satan and the Beast and the False Prophet. This is not the fate of the average, run-of-the-mill unrepentant sinner, the vast majority of sinners awaiting judgement.
I agree with you that the passage there is specifically in reference to the devil, the antichrist and the false prophet. I already pointed that out.
And I hastened to fairly point out that all those whose names are not recorded in the book of life in the same chapter verse 15 five verses latter -
"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (v.15)
Now if you want to ASSUME that for the "anyones" the result will be different, that is pure speculation. I know "Love believes all things" and you and I cannot be more caring then Jesus the One who died on the cross.
But Revelation 20:10 discribes what is going to go on in a place to Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet. If want to assume the outcome to those mentioned in verse 15 is substantially different, I think you have only wishful thinking to back it up.
Maybe the top of the lake of fire will be like heaven to the lower part of the lake of fire. I was once told that. But that is probably 100% speculation.
I'm saying that someone, sometime in the past, has brought forth this idea that God is willing to torment his creation "for ever and ever" and a large segment of Christians have seized upon this idea as some sort of twisted fear game, as well as a large number who think it's actually a good idea and just can't wait to see it happen. I would remind you that even the Nicene Creed, which actually lists the common beliefs of Christians, does not ever mention an 'everlasting torment' for unrepentant sinners. Clearly, this current fad was added to the Christian canon since then.
These fearful words came out of the mouth of Jesus.
The fearful words of, say, Matthew 10:28, were not added after any Council. They are the pure word of God according to the original Scriptures.
This is not to say these or any words from Jesus could be exploited. These words of severity have indeed been exploited. And other words of grace have also been exploited.
That is not reason enough for us to say He never said it.
I have read tracts which I thought were over the top concerning hell.
I would not give those Gospel tracts to anyone.
However, I do not move from this revulsion to a false position that Jesus and the Scripture never spoke of eternal punishment.