John 8:58

Originally posted by whodey
Ok. So now splain how Jesus created us but is not our God.

I have not said Jesus created us, you did, all i have actually said is that he existed before Abraham. Build many straw houses? watch out for big bad wolves and bad ol putty cats.

Originally posted by sonship
Is [b]"Jesus Christ in you " as many reputable versions of 2 Cor. 13:5 would say ?

Not only Second Corinthians 13:5 says "Jesus Christ is in you" to the "approved".
You also have:

"Christ in you the hope of glory" - Colossians 1:27

" We [Father and Son] will come to him and make an abode with him " - John 14:23

...[text shortened]... nt to live like an angel and in union with Michael the angel ?

more balderdash!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
another bent translation! typical, is there no end to your sorcery? The verse that you refer to is verse 5,

(2 Corinthians 13:5) Keep testing whether you are in the faith, keep proving what you yourselves are. Or do you not recognize that Jesus Christ is in union with you? Unless you are disapproved.

I fully confess that I live my life in union with Jesus Christ that I may not be disapproved.

I fully confess that I live my life in union with Jesus Christ that I may not be disapproved.

There is a difference between being disapproved for eternal life because you have not received Jesus Christ and been born again

AND

being disapproved for the millennial kingdom reward of a thousand years because of not LIVING through that life of Christ that was received.

In the Corinthian letter, Paul is speaking of the first instance. The problems in Corinth showed that they had challenges to LIVING by Christ. He is informing them that if Jesus Christ is not in them they are disapproved for being Christians at ALL here:

" Test yourselves whether YOU ARE IN THE FAITH ...; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are DISAPPROVED."

You are attempting to claim the former while in subtlety deny that latter.

IE. " I want to live a righteous life in union with Michael the angel for the coming kingdom. But I do not believe Christ in His form as the Holy Spirit lives in me."

I repeat my confession. My God is the man Jesus Christ. Christ lives in me.

Plato's philosophy had nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by sonship

I fully confess that I live my life in union with Jesus Christ that I may not be disapproved.

There is a difference between being disapproved for eternal life because you have not received Jesus Christ and been born again

AND

being disapproved for the millennial kingdom reward of a thousand years because of not LIVING through th the man Jesus Christ. Christ lives in me.

Plato's concepts had nothing to do with it.

more paganism masquerading as Biblical truth, you worry about your salvation, i have more bias to expose and the way one discerns whether they are approved or disapproved is not by some mystical spiritualistic practices and sorcery, but by studying the scriptures and applying the principles.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
But as He was linking His identity with the God

balderdash!

These verses are not all balderdash. They are the oracles of God.

"Christ in you the hope of glory" - Colossians 1:27

" We [Father and Son] will come to him and make an abode with him " - John 14:23

" That Christ may make His home in your hearts " - Ephesians 1:17

" But if Christ be in you ..." - Romans 8:10

" .... Christ is speaking in me ..." (2 Cor. 13:3)

" ... it pleased God to reveal His Son in me ..." (Gal. 1:15)

" I will not leave you orphans; I am coming to you." (John 14:17)

" In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:20)

"It is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me ..." (Gal. 2:20)

"My little children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you ... " (Gal. 4:19)

"Abide in Me and I in you." (John 15:4)

And the "balderdash" you snort here is exactly the "balderdash!!" snorted by the religionists who picked up stones to execute the man Jesus before them who said "Before Abraham was, I am."

You are of exactly kindred attitude to the mob which sought to kill Jesus for claiming He was the God of Exodus 3:14.

There is not a penny's worth of difference between your "balderdash" and their "Crucify, Crucify Him!" . No difference at all.

You don't think they believed in Yahweh or "JHVH" ? They did. They were blind to see the TRUTH - that "the Word became flesh".

Originally posted by sonship
These verses are not all balderdash. They are the oracles of God.

[quote] "Christ in you the hope of glory" - Colossians 1:27

" We [Father and Son] will come to him and make an abode with him " - John 14:23

" That Christ may make His home in your hearts " - Ephesians 1:17

" But if Christ be in you ..." - Romans 8:10

" .... Christ is ...[text shortened]... nd to see the TRUTH - that [b]"the Word became flesh".[/b]

more biased translations, is it any wonder that you are perpetuating a lie.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
more biased translations, is it any wonder that you are perpetuating a lie.

The word of God warns us not to worship angels.

"Let no one defraud you by judging you unworthy of your prize in ... worship of the angels ..." (Colossians 2:18)

You've been defrauded by a teaching that tells you to live in union with Michael the angel.

Originally posted by sonship
The word of God warns us not to worship angels.

[b]"Let no one defraud you by judging you unworthy of your prize in ... worship of the angels ..." (Colossians 2:18)

You've been defrauded by a teaching that tells you to live in union with Michael the angel.[/b]

on the contrary, we dont worship Christ, another straw house built by another straw man, watch out for big bad ol wolves in sheeps clothing!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
on the contrary, we dont worship Christ, another straw house built by another straw man, watch out for big bad ol wolves in sheeps clothing!

on the contrary, we dont worship Christ,

I know you do not. You seek to live in union with Michael the angel.

However Jesus Christ received worship. And to live in union with Jesus you have to worship Him.

It is impossible to live in union with Jesus Christ if you refuse to worship Jesus Christ.

You've been defrauded by an organization mad with envy giving you Michael the angel instead of the Son of God.

I might open up another thread to prove to the Forum that your so-called platonic accusation about Hades and the soul of man is also non-biblical.

Where would you be without the neo-Platonic slanders ?
No wonder you obsess over this accusation as your only excuse for your antichrist teaching.

Originally posted by sonship

on the contrary, we dont worship Christ,

I know you do not. You seek to live in union with Michael the angel.

However Jesus Christ [b]received worship. And to live in union with Jesus you have to worship Him.

It is impossible to live in union with Jesus Christ if you refuse to worship Jesus Christ.

You've been defrauded ...[text shortened]...
No wonder you obsess over this accusation as your only excuse for your antichrist teaching.[/b]

Jesus Christ receives honour, he does not receive worship, the texts that your biased translators use as worship are known, shall we examine how a simple eastern salutation suddenly becomes an act of worship yet elsewhere is translated, bow down, do obeisance. No no more slight of hand, no more tampering with verb tenses, no more obscuring the implicit meaning with words that are not in the original, no more insidious teachings imposing a bias on scripture, its easy to see through the empty deception that the trinity is, you have made Christ an object of idolatry, a created entity, the first born of all creation who himself stated you must worship the father alone, but you cannot do it because of your silly tradition, so be it, your house is abandoned to you.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
on the contrary, we dont worship Christ, another straw house built by another straw man, watch out for big bad ol wolves in sheeps clothing!

Do you have a differnt definition of worship than the general population? If so how do you define it?

The following is from the New World Translation that you Jehovah's Witnesses say is correct.

And God proceeded to speak all these words, saying:

“I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. You must not have any other gods against my face.

“You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me;6but exercising loving‐kindness toward the thousandth generation in the case of those who love me and keep my commandments.

(Exodus 20:1-5 NWT)

Turn to me and be saved, all YOU; [at the] ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no one else. By my own self I have sworn—out of my own mouth in righteousness the word has gone forth, so that it will not return—that to me every knee will bend down, every tongue will swear, saying, ‘Surely in Jehovah there are full righteousness and strength.

(Isaiah 45:22-23 NWT)

for it is written: “‘As I live,’ says Jehovah, ‘to me every knee will bend down, and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to God.’” So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God.

(Romans 14:11-12 NWT)

For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

(Philippians 2:9-11 NWT)

Did you notice that your Jehovah's original commandment in Exodus of the Old Testament was not to bow down or serve other gods. Then in Isaiah, your Jehovah, claiming to be God, swears that every knee will bend down to him and every tongue will swear of Jehovah's righteousness and strength. Paul recounts this to the Romans and then tells the Philippians that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend and every tongue will acknowledge Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.

How does this teach we should not bow down (bend the knee) to Jesus and serve Him as you do your Jehovah God?

The Instructor

Jesus Christ receives honor, he does not receive worship,

Whatever honor the Father receives from me the Son receives the same -

"In order that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father." (John 5:23)

you have made Christ an object of idolatry, a created entity, the first born of all creation who himself stated you must worship the father alone, but you cannot do it because of your silly tradition, so be it, your house is abandoned to you.

You have made the angel Michael your idol.

Here the worship is toward the Lamb Who opened the scroll of God's will when no other of all the universe could.

"And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell before the Lamb, each having a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

And they sing a new song saying, You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for You were slain and have purchased for God by Your blood men out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth.

And I saw, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and of the living creatures and of the elders, and their number was ten thousands of ten thousands and thousands of thousands,

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb who has been slain to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea and all things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever." (Rev. 5:8-13)

If that is not universal worship of the Lamb nothing is.

That is showing worship and honor to God and to the Lamb.

I doubt that your neo-Platonian philosophy got the universal worship all wrongly influenced.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Jesus Christ receives honour, he does not receive worship, the texts that your biased translators use as worship are known, shall we examine how a simple eastern salutation suddenly becomes an act of worship yet elsewhere is translated, bow down, do obeisance. No no more slight of hand, no more tampering with verb tenses, no more obscuring the impli ...[text shortened]... but you cannot do it because of your silly tradition, so be it, your house is abandoned to you.

This again is from the New World Translation made especially for Jehovah's Witnesses:

For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

(John 5:22-23 NWT)

If we should honor the Son just as we honor the Father, why should that exclude worship? How can they exclude an honor given to the Father and still honor the Son as they honor the Father?

The same Greek word that your NWT translated as "obeisance" when referring to the Lord Jesus Christ is translated "worship" when referring to God. How is that honoring the Son just as you honor the Father?

The Instructor

a created entity, the first born of all creation who himself stated you must worship the father alone,

In that the man Jesus is an item of CREATION and the eternal Word became flesh, yes Jesus was created. For He is a man and "God created man ..." .

Christ is God mingled with man.
Christ is the infinite mingled with the finite in incarnation.

The One to be Ruler of Israel was from everlasting. ie. from eternity -

"Bethlehem Ephrathah ... from you there will come forth to Me He who is to be Ruler in Israel; And His goings forth are from ancient times, from the days of eternity." (Se Micah 5:2)

So the Word who became flesh and tabernacle among us (John 1:14) is God from eternity united with His creation as God-man.

No wonder before Abraham came into being, He is the eternal self existing I Am. In this way He is the Firstborn of all creation. That is because of all items in creation He has the preeminence as God incarnate.

Concerning the worship of God, ultimately this is to TAKE GOD INTO our beings.

To worship God is to take God in. This is why God is depicted as food and water throughout the Bible.

First Corinthians 10:4 - " And all ate the same spiritual food, And all drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank of a spiritual rock which followed them, and that rock was Christ."

In symbol form, God taught us that to take Him in as spiritual food and spiritual drink is the true worship.

John 6:57 - "As the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me."

We must learn to turn away from all considerations of our behavior and care only to be filled with God.

God is illustrated in the Bible as food, water, and breath; we must take Him in, just as we take in food we eat, the water we drink, and the air that we breath - John 6:63, 57; 4:10,14; 7:37-39; 20:22; Lam. 3:55-56.

The worship the Father seeks is that we take God INTO us. The worship God seeks is that we eat Christ that we may live by Christ. The worship that the Father seeks is that we drink of the living water of the Holy Spirit receiving Christ INTO us.

Originally posted by sonship

a created entity, the first born of all creation who himself stated you must worship the father alone,

In that the man Jesus is an item of CREATION and the eternal Word became flesh, yes Jesus was created. For He is a man and [b]"God created man ..." .

Christ is God mingled with man.
Christ is the infinite mingled with the fi ...[text shortened]... seeks is that we drink of the living water of the Holy Spirit receiving Christ INTO us.[/b]

I think we might as well stop wasting any more of our time with these two JWs. They are not really paying any attention anyway.

The Instructor