Judgments - One or Two?

Originally posted by sonship
Rajk999, I am still trying to examine with you WHEN we might ascertain when the Son of Man comes with the glory of His angels and sits upon the throne of His glory.

Now at that time (at some time) this Son of Man on this throne gives invitation for the not condemned ones to come in to enjoy His kingdom:

[quote] [b] " Then the King will say to those o ...[text shortened]... storation under "the Son of Man" sitting on the throne of His glory in 19:28 ?[/b]

In Matt 25 Jesus is judging all nations and is inviting the saved ones to come and enjoy the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world - the New Jerusalem, not the restored Earth. The evil ones will be cast into the lake of fire.

Jesus sits on the throne 1000 years. Lots of things happen in that period, chief of which is that the earth is gradually restored and enjoyed by the nations, under the rule of Jesus and the Saints.

The judgment described is the only one. ONE judgment at the end of the 1000 yrs.

Originally posted by sonship

Lets stick with what the Bible says clearly then.

That is why I am paying attention to the precise wording -

[b]'When the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory."

I could just say "Oh, when Jesus returns" and be done with it.

Clear thinking ca ...[text shortened]... of which talk about the Son of Man sitting on "the throne of His glory".

Cont. below.[/b]

You are trying to focus on a side issue. Throne of his glory is not an issue.
Jesus sits on his throne, in other words He rules for 1000 yrs.
What we have to establish is what happens in that 1000 yrs and at what time.
That is what hapens at the end, at the middle, or at the beginning.

Originally posted by Rajk999

See if you can get that point
I gave an example of the bible giving us an idea of when certain things are going to happen.
Tell me if you agree with it.

Of these two alternatives the latter 2.) is the better interpretation.

1.) According to Matthew 19:28; 25:31,34 the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory and conducts a restoration of the earth. At the end of this time or at least sometime after it is begun He invites saved nations to enter into that kingdom.

2.) According to 19:28 and 25:31,34 when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory and conducts a restoration the saved nations are invited into it in the very beginning of it. Their enjoyment is an intrinsic element of that "restoration".

I think the latter interpretation is more logical.

Originally posted by Rajk999

You are trying to focus on a side issue. Throne of his glory is not an issue.

He mentions it in 19:28 and in 25:31. It is important to Jesus. What right do I have to gloss over it and just insert "When Jesus returns" as a paraphrase?

In the spirit of sticking with the words of the Bible, I would not dismiss the phrase as a side issue. It is about the "WHEN" of the events.

Is it a "when" along ANY time within the thousand years ?

It is not too good to think the restoration goes on for 1,000 years before some nations are invited to come in to enjoy it.

Jesus sits on his throne, in other words He rules for 1000 yrs.

But if no nations are invited in to enjoy it, over who is He reigning ?
You may say "Over Christians".

But rewarded Christians are reigning WITH Him and for a thousand years.
I don't think He appoints Christians to reign over each other.

So the logical solution is that He and they (who are rewarded) reign during the restoration. And those over whom they reign for a thousand years are invited to participate at the beginning when He first comes to earth and sits in the Holy Land on the throne of His glory.

Let us go on to examine WHO is being judged at EACH of these judgments.

What we have to establish is what happens in that 1000 yrs and at what time.
That is what hapens at the end, at the middle, or at the beginning.

Christ has a judgment of those LIVING on the earth at the time when He comes to the earth with His angels and sits in the Holy Land on the throne of His glory governing over the planet wide "restoration" .

Christ has another last judgment of the DEAD at the end of this restoration period.


A judgment of the living who passed through the great tribulation is conducted.
Some are saved nations which are sheep. They listened to their conscience and were kind to suffering refugees under Antichrist. They are invited to come into the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. They are reigned over by Christ and rewarded co-kings from His believers.

Some are condemned nations (goats) because during the great tribulation they sided with Antichrist. They terribly treated those brothers of Jesus, down to the least of them.
They go into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Dupes as they were. They go into it 1,000 years before Satan is tossed in.
However, they do go in with Antichrist and the False Prophet - alive.

Originally posted by sonship

See if you can get that point
I gave an example of the bible giving us an idea of when certain things are going to happen.
Tell me if you agree with it.

Of these two alternatives the latter [b]2.) is the better interpretation.

1.) According to Matthew 19:28; 25:31,34 the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glor ...[text shortened]... sic element of that "restoration".

I think the latter interpretation is more logical.[/b]

None of those are correct as far as I can see.

Originally posted by sonship

[b]You are trying to focus on a side issue. Throne of his glory is not an issue.

He mentions it in 19:28 and in 25:31. It is important to Jesus. What right do I have to gloss over it and just insert "When Jesus returns" as a paraphrase?

In the spirit of sticking with the words of the Bible, I would not dismiss the ...[text shortened]... efore Satan is tossed in.
However, they do go in with Antichrist and the False Prophet - alive.[/b]

In this post you are confusing a whole pile of unrelated events.

Hence the reason why i said to slow down and do it a certain way.

ie identify what the Bible says clearly and what is not said clearly about the timing of these events.

Originally posted by Rajk999
None of those are correct as far as I can see.

None of those are correct as far as I can see.

Where else can we see anything about Christ in the throne of His glory besides Matthew 18:28; Matthew 25:31 ?

How about the prophecy of Jeremiah 3:17 ?
Jeremiah 3:17 -

"At that time they will call Jerusalem the throne of Jehovah, and all the nations will be gathered to it because the name of Jehovah is at Jerusalem; and they will no longer walk after the stubbornness of their evil heart."

Do you think Jehovah God sits on the throne for one thousand years and afterwards all the nations will be gathered to that throne ?

I think some are gathered before the "restoration" and no longer walk in the stubbornness of their hearts. Rather they are invited into the kingdom and benefit from Christ's restoration and reign WITH His co-kings and restored Israel too.

This throne of Jehovah is the throne of the Son of Man - He is God incarnate.

Originally posted by sonship

None of those are correct as far as I can see.

Where else can we see anything about Christ in the throne of His glory besides [b]Matthew 18:28; Matthew 25:31 ?

How about the prophecy of Jeremiah 3:17 ?
Jeremiah 3:17 -
[quote] "At that time they will call Jerusalem the throne of Jehovah, and all the nations w ...[text shortened]... ed Israel too.

This throne of Jehovah is the throne of the Son of Man - He is God incarnate.

You are going off the point now, so I would not be interested in going down this road.

Originally posted by sonship

None of those are correct as far as I can see.

Where else can we see anything about Christ in the throne of His glory besides [b]Matthew 18:28; Matthew 25:31 ?

How about the prophecy of Jeremiah 3:17 ?
Jeremiah 3:17 -
[quote] "At that time they will call Jerusalem the throne of Jehovah, and all the nations w ...[text shortened]... ed Israel too.

This throne of Jehovah is the throne of the Son of Man - He is God incarnate.

Here is the focus of this thread, to determine if there are one or two judgments. To do that we should establish what happens in the reign of Christ:

For starters we know this from the bible:

Jesus returns.

1. He sits on his throne.
2.
3.
4. Last enemy destroyed in death

1000 yrs passes
End of reign of Christ.

Can you add to the list?

I can add:

Jesus returns

1. with his saints the elect who meets him in the air
2. He sits on his throne. and the saints rule with him
3. Restoration of Israel and the world begins
4.
5.
6.
7. All enemies subdued
8. Last enemy destroyed in death

1000 yrs passes
End of reign of Christ.

Can you add to the list?

Originally posted by Rajk999
You are going off the point now, so I would not be interested in going down this road.

You are going off the point now, so I would not be interested in going down this road.

How is it going off point to show Jeremiah's prophecy in Jeremiah 3:17 and Christ's prediction in Matthew 25:31-46 are about the same thing ?

I think we should add Joel 3:12 also.

" Let the nations rouse themselves and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat.

For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations." (Joel 3:12)

That is a huge valley you know?
I believe Christ will gather large numbers of people there before the throne of His glory in the Holy Land and judge the living people who have passed through the great tribulation. He will do this at the commencement of the "restoration".

You're welcomed to have another viewpoint.

Originally posted by sonship

You are going off the point now, so I would not be interested in going down this road.

How is it going off point to show Jeremiah's prophecy in [b]Jeremiah 3:17 and Christ's prediction in Matthew 25:31-46 are about the same thing ?

I think we should add Joel 3:12 also.

[quote] " Let the nations rouse themselv ...[text shortened]... at the commencement of the [b]"restoration".

You're welcomed to have another viewpoint.[/b]

Matt 25, speaks of when Jesus returns.
Matt 25 speaks of a judgment
The point which I make is that you cannot assume that that judgment takes place immediately upon the return of Christ.

Is there a passage that says its immediately upon his return?
Pointing to the prophets who say the same thing as Matt 25 is not proving your case.

The Bible speaks of certain things which happen immediately upon his return.
From what I see the judgment is not one of them.

Originally posted by Rajk999

Matt 25, speaks of when Jesus returns.
Matt 25 speaks of a judgment
The point which I make is that you cannot assume that that judgment takes place immediately upon the return of Christ.

You need more pieces of the puzzle put together.
You are not dealing with all of the pieces.

" Let the nations rouse themselves and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat.
For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations." (Joel 3:12)

The "there" is a place - "the valley of Jehoshaphat".
But the judgment of the great white throne, the very last judgment, the dead are suspended like in space, earth and heaven have fled away.

"And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose face earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened ... and the dead were judged ..." (See Rev. 20:11,12)

Joel 3:12 agrees more with Matthew 25:31,34 - the surrounding living nations are gathered to what seems a located geographic place.

Revelation 20:11 tells us that at the last judgment earth with its valleys, hills, and everything else "fled away " from the face of God. Only the dead and the face of the Divine Judge seen.

If all the dead are not resurrected before the thousand years (Rev. 20:6) than the judging of Christ upon all of the dead great and small could not occur until the end of the millennium.

But some nations will survive through the great tribulation. And from among these living people a portion are judged with condemnation and a portion are invited into the restoration to be reigned over by Christ.

These sheep among the living nations are not Christians saved by the gospel of grace.
But they are saved among living survivors who enter into the blessings of the restoration.
This last point is hard for many to understand which is understandable yet ironic too.

We both wanted short posts here.
For now I would only emphasize that the living among nations are not the same as the dead.

Is there a passage that says its immediately upon his return?
Pointing to the prophets who say the same thing as Matt 25 is not proving your case.

I'll let readers decide if I make a good case.

The Bible speaks of certain things which happen immediately upon his return.
From what I see the judgment is not one of them.

At this time I will add that what you don't get is that there are three judgments we are really dealing with.

The judgment seat of Christ to reward or discipline the saved from the church age.
The judgment of the living nations at the beginning of the millennial kingdom.
The judgment of all the dead at the great white throne at the end of the millennial kingdom.

Since there are people born on the earth during the restoration of the millennial kingdom, they must be judged also. Since a portion of them rebel at the end of the millennium, at least the killed ones are among all the dead before the great white throne.

"And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison. and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. Their number is like that of the sand of the sea.

And they went up upon the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city [Jerusalem] ; and fire came down out of heaven and devoured them.

And the devil, who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire, where the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:7-10)

The beast and the false prophet were thrown into the lake of fire alive a thousand years earlier. And some nations who were born during the wonderful restoration are given a chance to withstand the deceiving release of Satan from his thousand years of being in prison.

The time of judgments are two separated by the thousand years.
The nature of the judgments are two - the living at Christ's second coming and the dead before the great white throne.
The places also appear not the exactly alike.

The judgment of living nations is in the valley of Jehoshophat.
The judgment of all the dead suspended before His face with earth and heaven fled away from that to them terribly eternally righteous face.

There is still more to discuss.