Judgments - One or Two?

At this point Rajk999 I would say a word about milk and meat of the word.

There is no shame in something being too hard when your digestive system is not prepared to digest it. Some of this is hard. And there is a problem with you wanting to receive it because of its difficulty.

It would be good to realize that some of it is rather hard and not just dismiss it as nonsense. It would be nice anyway. But you spoke before of the meat of the word and the milk of the word. The eating of more palatable and less palatable densities of food should not be used as a matter of ridicule.

I think some of what I explain here is too hard at this time for you.
This is not a credit to me.

Originally posted by sonship

[b]Matt 25, speaks of when Jesus returns.
Matt 25 speaks of a judgment
The point which I make is that you cannot assume that that judgment takes place immediately upon the return of Christ.

You need more pieces of the puzzle put together.
You are not dealing with all of the pieces.

[quote] " Let the nations rouse themselves ...[text shortened]... e [b]"fled away " from the face of God. Only the dead and the face of the Divine Judge seen.[/b]

You are really not understanding. Proof of that is that you are not addressing this point.

What in those passages tell at what time after Christ returns, this happens?

Im answering .. there is no indication of the time. So whatever conclusion you arrive at is guesswork

Yes.. the pieces of the puzzle is what im dealing with. Im not interested in what your church doctrine do with the pieces, which is what you are doing here and I know you would do that hence my early request no to do that.

Lets list the pieces without deciding where they go except the Bible specifically states where they go.

Originally posted by sonship
At this point Rajk999 I would say a word about [b]milk and meat of the word.

There is no shame in something being too hard when your digestive system is not prepared to digest it. Some of this is hard. And there is a problem with you wanting to receive it because of its difficulty.

It would be good to realize that some of it is rather hard a ...[text shortened]... hink some of what I explain here is too hard at this time for you.
This is not a credit to me.[/b]

What you are saying is typical church doctrine.
Its not too hard. I have been there, done that.
But it is wrong. Its nonsense.
I have moved away from it and I have come up with another method of deciding how these events play out.
If you are interested we can proceed.
If however you dont care to hear my opinion then please let me know.

Originally posted by Rajk999
What you are saying is typical church doctrine.
Its not too hard. I have been there, done that.
But it is wrong. Its nonsense.
I have moved away from it and I have come up with another method of deciding how these events play out.
If you are interested we can proceed.
If however you dont care to hear my opinion then please let me know.

Your church doctrine is full of holes and you are brushing these holes aside instead of realizing that something is wrong.

Here is one such hole:

1. Christ returns and the 1000 yr reign begins [ agreed]
2. Gathers the elect who rule with him [agreed]
3. Judgment of all nations [so you say - Matt 25]
4. Restoration of Israel /world

Here are the problems which you appear to be aware of:
If the judgment takes place BEFORE the Restoration then:
- where will the righteous go as there is no restored Kingdom and no New Jerusalem
- where will the unrighteous go.. as it is only after the end of the 1000 yrs will people be cast into the lake of fire
- if all the nations are judged then who will Christ rule over ? there is nobody left.

The solution to these 3 glaring gaps in your doctrine is simple.
There is no judgment when Jesus returns.
There is one judgment at the end of the 1000 yrs only.

Its Restoration first, then judgment
NOT Judgment then Restoration

Maybe you imagine Christ doing the Restoration instantly but this is not the case.
The Restoration is a slow process of changing the earth and the people to conform to the teachings of Christ. no magic wand is going to be waved.

The resstoraton takes the full 1000 years when the last thing is conquering death. During that time changes take place: - man's lifespan is increased, and there is less disease and sickness. It is not an instantenous process as people imagine.

Here is another flaw in your interpretation of these events.

Jesus has his saints who will rule already. All these multitudes of sheep are not going to rule in the 1000 period. Those that are Christs at His coming both dead and alive will rule with Him. Those righteous saints are already chosen... they are kings and preists destined to rule with Christ.

Now because you have this judgment at the start of the 1000 yr reign, you are at a loss to decide what to do with these sheep. Hence you want to place them as rulers in the 1000 yr reign. Incorrect ... the Bible says that this batch will enter the Kingdom of God prepared from the foundation of the world.. this is the New Jerusalem which will only appear when the 1000 yr reign is completed. They are not kings and preists

All this complication is caused because you have added another judgment.

There is ONE JUDGMENT and it is AT THE END OF THE 1000 YRS.

Originally posted by Rajk999

Here is another flaw in your interpretation of these events.

You don't understand what I have been writing, partly because I am being very brief, partly because you just have something else you prefer to believe.

Either way the response to this post will show that you don't understand me one way or the other.

Jesus has his saints who will rule already. All these multitudes of sheep are not going to rule in the 1000 period.

Case in point. I never said that the sheep from Matthew 25:31-46 reign AT ALL. You don't understand me.

Those that are Christs at His coming both dead and alive will rule with Him.

I have not talked at all about the judgment Christ carries out over His saints. I only briefly mentioned that it too was a judgment. It is called "the judgment seat of Christ" and "the judgment seat of God" ( 2 Cor. 5:10; Rom. 14:10) .

I really haven't addressed this at all. All I have really been discussing is the difference between the judgment before the millennium of the remaining living nations which pass through the great tribulation (Matt. 25:31-46) and the judgment, the last judgment of all the dead at the great white throne when the thousand years are completed (Rev. 20:11-15)

You are arguing that they are the same based on an assumption that the specific time of the judgment of Matt. 25:31-46 is not mentioned.

You accept no reasoning that this is not entirely true based on sheer stubbornness, a stubbornness which I don't feel to work against perpetually.

Those righteous saints are already chosen... they are kings and preists destined to rule with Christ.

This means that the judgment which assigned their reward (or discipline) had to take place before Christ descended to the earth in the first place.

But because of great stubbornness which I see in you, I don't think I will cast the reasons for this out there for you to trample upon. It is okay though. It is okay.

Be persuaded with your way of understanding the matter.

When Christ descends He descends WITH those who are the overcomers from among His saints who will fight with Him and reign with Him.

In Joel 3:11,12 the "mighty ones" are the army of Christ descending with Him as seen in Revelation 19.

Previously I used verse 12 to show Christ as Jehovah God judging the surrounding living nations in the valley of Jehoshaphat. Now I will include the verse before 12, verse 11 which shows Christ descending WITH His bridal army, And His bridal army are the "mighty ones" coming down from the rapture to fight with Christ at Armageddon. And all this is just before the establishment of the millennial kingdom as the restoration.

"Hurry and come, All you surrounding nations, And be gathered. There cause Your mighty ones to descend, O Jehovah! (v.11)

Let the nations rouse themselves and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations." (Joel 3:11,12)

This judging corresponds to the parable of the good and the bad fish being hauled up from the sea by the fisherman in Matt.13:47-50.

" Again, the kingdom of the heavens is like a net cast into the sea and gathered from every species. Which when it was filled, they brought onto the shore, and sat down and collected the good into vessels; but the foul they cast out.

So it will be at the consummation of the age: the angels will go forth and separate the evil from the midst of the righteous. And will cast them into the furnace of fire. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth." (Matt. 13:47-50)

In this parable the good fish are the same as the sheep in Matthew 25:31-46
And the bad fish are the same as the goats in the same passage.

The age is in transition between the church age and the millennial kingdom age.
And Christ's judgment there (of the good and bad fishes out of the sea / the sheep and goats of the nations) is His judgment of LIVING peoples at the time He comes back to the earth.

He comes back, down from the heaven, WITH His mighty ones rewarded saints - rewarded to fight with Him at Armageddon and reign with Him from the beginning to the end of the millennium.

Now because you have this judgment at the start of the 1000 yr reign, you are at a loss to decide what to do with these sheep.

I am not "at a loss" at all. YOU may be at a loss.

It is clear that these sheep (also the good fish in the parable of Matt. 13:47-50 ) are the peoples who are transferred from the present age into the kingdom age.

Christ does not reward His saints to reign over each other. There must be a peoples there during that time OVER WHICH the saints of Christ are reigning with Christ.

Think on it just awhile before knee-jerk rejection that this is my "church doctrine".

Anyone wanting to learn these things carefully should get a Recovery Version of the Bible with footnotes and study notes and cross check ALL of the relevant verses in the sidebar and study notes.

This posting here is brief. And the audience of Rajk999 is very stubborn and resistant to what doesn't jive with what he kind of "knows" already.

Hence you want to place them as rulers in the 1000 yr reign.

No I do not place them as rulers during the 1000 years. That is your inserting your failure to understand.

They are the nations OVER WHOM ... the saints of Christ reign.
It is said that they enter into eternal life.

"And these [goats] shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous [sheep] into eternal life." (25:46)

This requires a whole discussion in itself, one for which I think you are not ready.
But it doesn't say that eternal life entered into THEM but that they enter into eternal life.

In short, in brief this means that they enter into the blessings of the restored earth as God originally intended Adam and Eve and their descendants to enter into from the beginning of the book of Genesis, the foundation of the world.

Adam, before he fell, did not have God as eternal life dwelling IN him.
But he was created very good and innocent to be living everlastingly in a realm of a blessed creation.

That creation Christ RESTORES for 1,000 years. And he has (in addition) to His born again saints as rulers - some restored nations to be as the original Adam to enter into that realm to be ruled over by the sons of God.

"Then the King will say [to the sheep] to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." (v.34)

In other words to enter into eternal life in verse 46 is to be RESTORED to be as Adam and Eve were BEFORE their fall. They were to enjoy the kingdom that God had for them from the foundation of the world.

Eternal life does not enter into them. But they enter into a realm of eternal life.

The sons of God who reign with Christ over them are different. They have been chosen not from the foundation of the world but BEFORE... the foundation of the world -

"Even as He chose us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto SONSHIP through Jesus Christ..." (Eph. 1:5)

SHEEP - chosen for something FROM the foundation of the world.
SONS OF GOD reigning OVER SHEEP in the millennium - chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world, predestinated to be sons of God.

I stop here.

Here is where the Jehovah's Witnesses are shortsighted as well as some of Christianity.

The people who are to enjoy the blessings of creation FROM the foundation of the world are not God's central purpose. But the sons of God in whom God lives, predestined BEFORE the foundation of the world are His central eternal purpose.

The JWs are happy to count themselves as those who will enjoy the blessings of the earth as God wanted FROM the foundation of the world. That is not the eternal purpose of God though. His eternal plan made BEFORE the creation of the universe was not just to have everlasting good people but SONS of God united "organically" with Him as their indwelling eternal life.

Therefore Ephesians 1:4,5 is much deeper and more blessed then Matthew 25:33,46.

Adam never took the food of the tree of life.
But he was created very good and innocent before he fell.

Originally posted by sonship
They are the nations OVER WHOM ... the saints of Christ reign.
It is said that they enter into eternal life.

According to you, there are differences between these,
eternal life
life eternal
Life in the Kingdom of God
everlasting life ????

This playing with words foolishness is not my thing, it is deceitful and crooked.. so I will leave you to that. My conscience does not permit me to be that way.. so you practice that.

You say that the sheep after entering the Kingdom of God will have saints rule over them.
That is complete nonsense and it is not in the Bible.

The issues and problems created by having Matt 25 judgment at the start of the 1000 yrs are as follows:

1. There is no restored Kingdom in which the righteous sheep will be sent, because. Christ returns at a point when the earth is in turmoil. There are wars famine, drought, suffering... Christ returns to put an end to the reign of evil man and to institute his own authority with the Christian Saints. This process is not instantaneous as you cleanly imagine. The Restoration takes several decades or several centuries.

2. After this Matt 25 judgment there is nobody to reign over. Your statement that the sheep will make up the nations over which the saints will rule is such garbage I dont know how to describe such evil deception when the Bible is clear about who these sheep are and where they are going.

3. The evil goats are cast into the lake of fire. This only happens at the END of the 1000 yrs.

Everything in the Bible points to Matt 25 judgment being at the end of the 1000 yr reign.

1. The Kingdom of God - the New Jerusalem is ready
2. The sheep go into it
3. The goats are destroyed in the lake of fire
4. All at the end of the reign of Christ.

..He hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness .. (Acts 17:31 KJV)

One Judgment NOT two

And you are right about one thing. Im not ready to understand your false interpretation of why Matt 25 is at the start of the 1000 yrs. This doctrine about Christ brothers escaping the antichrist, and whoever helps them out will be the sheep .. do you really believe that garbage ?? 😀😀 ..

Originally posted by sonship
At this point Rajk999 I would say a word about [b]milk and meat of the word.

There is no shame in something being too hard when your digestive system is not prepared to digest it. Some of this is hard. And there is a problem with you wanting to receive it because of its difficulty.

It would be good to realize that some of it is rather hard a ...[text shortened]... hink some of what I explain here is too hard at this time for you.
This is not a credit to me.[/b]

Both milk and meat are to help us grasp what God has for us, to despise one is foolish.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Both milk and meat are to help us grasp what God has for us, to despise one is foolish.

Actually according to Paul the milk is a means to an end. The end is the meat. That is the milk helps you move forward to righteousness, good works and the avoidance of evil. The sonship doctrine does not preach that but instead focusses on the milk as an end in itself.

Milk - knowing, understand the things of eternal life of Christ's commandments
Meat - doiing the things of eternal life and doing Christ commandments

Some need the milk to move on to the meat.
Some do not the meat without needing someone to tell them good from evil, they have it in their conscience

The book of Ephesians has clear example of that. The Ephesians were wallowing in sinful and unrighteousness. They need teachngs of Christ to tell them how to live righteously.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Both milk and meat are to help us grasp what God has for us, to despise one is foolish.

Right.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Both milk and meat are to help us grasp what God has for us, to despise one is foolish.

I don't think Rajk999 understands the basics of the Gospel of the Grace of God (Acts 20:24) . He would have been, I think, on the side of the Pharisees who said the Gentile Christians had to be circumcised and to keep the law of Moses.