Originally posted by LemonJello So basically, God throws us into the deep end, knowing full well that we cannot swim, and then merely* offers His hand as the only alternative to a watery grave? That's some messed up, demented God you worship. At any rate, which is the more dastardly act: God's throwing the aquatically challenged person in, or the aquatically challenged person's failur ...[text shortened]...
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*What, God doesn't want to get his fine clothes wet?
God throws us into the deep end?
God created a perfect world and 2 perfect people. Those people used their freewill to introduce sin into the world that God created. Thus, the world and the people became imperfect. To save us from our sin, God sacrificed His only son so that we wouldn't have to pay the price that sin requires, namely eternal life apart from God (i.e. hell). That doesn't sound demented to me. Sounds more like a loving God trying to save His creation from a fate of its own making.
Originally posted by FreakyKBH A little cut and paste action from the thread on the attributes of God. Maybe it will throw some light on the subject of God's justice, old school-style.
"His justice administers the penalties and blessings which are demanded by His perfect righteousness.
God's penalties are not vindictive, but vindicative. With unchangeable sin and evil there is ...[text shortened]... ist was judged as a substitute for us."
So much for not wanting to get His clothes wet.
I actually thought the most dramatic displays of God's justice were in the OT. I mean, drowning the entire planet under a huge flood, or destroying whole cities has got to be pretty dramatic. And why? Seems like a bit of a temper tantrum to me. Obviously, His pacifier had fallen out of the pram.
Originally posted by DragonFriend, FreakyKBH God is good; God is great; blah blah blah blah blah.
Neither of you get it. If your God is omnipotent and omniscient; and if 'hell' exists and people get sent there; then it is only by His will that these states are realized. What more ammunition does the atheist need to flat-out reject Him as an entity deserving of worship, even if He does exist? Y'all need to get real and worship someone who actually deserves your adoration.** Not only is it likely that your God doesn't exist; but worse, if He does exist, then He is a malign thug -- you've defined Him into that role.
Otherwise, please demonstrate (meaning construct some coherent argument) how one may be deserving of eternal punishment (if indeed that is what we take hell to be).
Originally posted by LemonJello Neither of you get it. If your God is omnipotent and omniscient; and if 'hell' exists and people get sent there; then it is only by His will that these states are realized. What more ammunition does the atheist need to flat-out reject Him as an entity deserving of worship, even if He does exist? Y'all need to get real and worship someone who actually d ...[text shortened]... at is what we take hell to be).
Exactly. When will these theists take their god as seriously as we do? I really think they make this crap up on the fly half the time. The other half they're just repeating what they heard in Sunday school.
You can see my post count has dropped significantly of late. I guess after all this time, the sport of playing ring-around-the-rosey with these guys is getting dull.
Originally posted by telerion Exactly. When will these theists take their god as seriously as we do? I really think they make this crap up on the fly half the time. The other half they're just repeating what they heard in Sunday school.
You can see my post count has dropped significantly of late. I guess after all this time, the sport of playing ring-around-the-rosey with these guys is getting dull.
Oh, and the research is going well. 🙂
It's always good to see you around, tel. I have been trying to pick my battles more carefully too, but sometimes I relapse.
Glad to hear the research is going well. Mine is a complete chaotic mess, but I do at least have visions of where I would like it to go.
Originally posted by LemonJello So basically, God throws us into the deep end, knowing full well that we cannot swim, and then merely* offers His hand as the only alternative to a watery grave? That's some messed up, demented God you worship. At any rate, which is the more dastardly act: God's throwing the aquatically challenged person in, or the aquatically challenged person's failur ...[text shortened]...
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*What, God doesn't want to get his fine clothes wet?
Err... No. Basically we waded into the deep end, found we can't swim and are desperately thrashing around ignoring his offered line.
Originally posted by LemonJello Neither of you get it. If your God is omnipotent and omniscient; and if 'hell' exists and people get sent there; then it is only by His will that these states are realized. What more ammunition does the atheist need to flat-out reject Him as an entity deserving of worship, even if He does exist? Y'all need to get real and worship someone who actually d ...[text shortened]... at is what we take hell to be).
It's surprising what could happen if by definition God's omnipotence is restricted from meddling with our free will. Yeah, yeah, I know... then by definition it is not omnipotence.
Chuck Norris was a close runner up for center stage. His bullet proof beard and dull acting is what sent me looking for greener pastures.
Originally posted by telerion Exactly. When will these theists take their god as seriously as we do? I really think they make this crap up on the fly half the time. The other half they're just repeating what they heard in Sunday school.
You can see my post count has dropped significantly of late. I guess after all this time, the sport of playing ring-around-the-rosey with these guys is getting dull.
Oh, and the research is going well. 🙂
You can see my post count has dropped significantly of late.
I hope it's not as a result of one certain ill-fated post... 😳
Originally posted by LemonJello Neither of you get it. If your God is omnipotent and omniscient; and if 'hell' exists and people get sent there; then it is only by His will that these states are realized. What more ammunition does the atheist need to flat-out reject Him as an entity deserving of worship, even if He does exist? Y'all need to get real and worship someone who actually d ...[text shortened]... at is what we take hell to be).
Would you care to demonstrate why a Righteous, Holy, God should allow a sinner, who by his own free-will is in a state of rebellion against Him , into Heaven?
Originally posted by dj2becker Would you care to demonstrate why a Righteous, Holy, God should allow a sinner, who by his own free-will is in a state of rebellion against Him , into Heaven?
I might as well ask you why mankind gets all of the blame for their flaws, even though their alleged designer did not make a single flawless human being, despite being allegedly omnisicient and omnipotent.
Originally posted by dj2becker Would you care to demonstrate why a Righteous, Holy, God should allow a sinner, who by his own free-will is in a state of rebellion against Him , into Heaven?
As usual, you fail to grasp the actual content of the debate. The content of this debate does not concern whether or not the sinner is compatible with heaven*; the question is whether or not the concept of hell (as in, a place of eternal punishment and torture) is compatible with an all-good God. You and others have already made the claim that the act of sentencing one to eternal damnation is compatible with God's omnibenevolence and His "perfect righteousness". I am merely calling your bluff: as usual, the onus falls to your lot, theist. So, as I already directed above, please demonstrate how one may be morally deserving of eternal damnation, and also show how this type of eternal suffering is logically necessary for the greater good (and is thus compatible with the God you have defined). There are many theists who do not hold such a concept of hell as a place of eternal suffering; but I know very well that you do. So this task definitely falls to your lot.
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*This question does not interest me in the slightest. If your God exists, the last thing I want is to spend all eternity with Him whilst we stroke each other's egos.
Originally posted by twhitehead The forms of punishment that I know and understand of are for the following possible reasons:
1. To make people fear to repeat the mistake.
2. To deter others from making the same mistake.
3. To keep dangerous people away from other people so as to keep the other people safe.
4. Revenge or spite.
5. Unjust punishment where the person "punished" is no ...[text shortened]... sends a person to Hell, what is the motive? It looks closest to no 4. which is hardly justice.
Originally posted by BigDoggProblem I might as well ask you why mankind gets all of the blame for their flaws, even though their alleged designer did not make a single flawless human being, despite being allegedly omnisicient and omnipotent.
Because a 'flawless' human being would not have free-will.
Originally posted by twhitehead The forms of punishment that I know and understand of are for the following possible reasons:
1. To make people fear to repeat the mistake.
2. To deter others from making the same mistake.
3. To keep dangerous people away from other people so as to keep the other people safe.
4. Revenge or spite.
5. Unjust punishment where the person "punished" is no ...[text shortened]... sends a person to Hell, what is the motive? It looks closest to no 4. which is hardly justice.
i guess you talk of hell on earth, which i do not believe to be the meaning in the Bible. i believe this to be after death and judgment, where one will be perfect without sin and the other eternal torment. i don't think it is possible for a relationship between after death punishment and a punishment we all dish out for the living.
i believe God sends people to an eternity in Hell because they don't believe in Jesus, and therefore did not live their life in an acceptable manner. living your life as such is not relient on the black and white manner of the law, as everyone is different. like a Mongrel Mob member could not fulfill your expectations, but they could still believe in Jesus and live their life in an acceptable manner to Him.
Justice and Hell
03 Mar '06 03:01
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