Justice and Hell

Originally posted by Halitose
I meant it in the sense that it would follow logically from the act of wrongdoing, e.g. you jump from a cliff therefore you would fall.

"A penalty for wrong doing" sounds rather like "punishment". The question is why punish?
Everything I have heard about hell implies that it is designed specifically for neverending punishment. (Seas of fire, tormented souls etc.)
If it is not punishment then what is it and what is its purpose?
If someone wants to go to heaven and is refused entry then that in itself is punishment whether hell exists or not.

Originally posted by Halitose
I meant it in the sense that it would follow logically from the act of wrongdoing, e.g. you jump from a cliff therefore you would fall.

Punishment does not logically follow in any sense. If you jump from a cliff (without something pushing you up), then you will fall; however, if you do wrong, you will not necessarily be punished. People escape punishment happens all the time.

Moreover, even if punishment did follow wrongdoing just as a fall follows a jump from a cliff, God can suspend gravity. Surely then he chooses not to suspend final punishment?

If there will be a final judgement, then it is because God chose to hold such a thing. If not, then I wonder who or what scheduled the meeting? Is God just some one's secretary, keeping tabs on the naughty and nice for his real master, Muffy?

Originally posted by no1marauder
The only "presupposition" that logically flows from his post is that Hell is punishment. Is it not?

There are other presuppositions as well. Punishment for what? Imposed by whom?

Originally posted by no1marauder
You're ridiculous; YOU were the one who wanted to talk about alternatives. The original poster was interested in why God would send people to Hell. He was looking for a reason based on standard purposes of punishment. If you don't want to talk about THAT subject, what are you posting here for??

"You're ridiculous;"
Indeed. I am wasting my time trying to talk to you after all...

"were the one who wanted to talk about alternatives."

Are you just unable to understand what I am saying, or are you saying God sends EVERYONE to hell? Otherwise being sent to hell IS the alternative being discussed.

If someone can be sent to hell as punishment, this is surely one of the alternatives. All I am saying is that this alternative can not be understood without reference to that which it is the alternative to. Oh, sorry. I forgot that all words mean exactly what you think they mean and there is no need to define what exactly is the context of the discussion. My mistake.

"The original poster was interested in why God would send people to Hell. He was looking for a reason based on standard purposes of punishment."

Yes. The question is WHY. What happens if they are not sent to hell is of paramount importance here in order to fabricate some sort of motivation. Of course this assumes we want to get a little more precise than:
"Answer: Whatever God wanted."

This still does not adress the issue of MOTIVATION, which is what I THOUGHT we were trying to discuss...

Originally posted by lucifershammer
There are other presuppositions as well. Punishment for what? Imposed by whom?

My question was: "If God sends a person to Hell, what is the motive?"

Are you saying that maybe someone else sends people to hell? That someone else does the judging? If this is the case then please explain as it would contradict the Bible and possible make a lot of people quickly switch who they are desperately praying to for salvation!

Originally posted by lucifershammer
There are other presuppositions as well. Punishment for what? Imposed by whom?

Punishment for what is irrelevant. Imposed by whom is expressly stated. Why ask a question when he's already told you the answer to it?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Are you saying that maybe someone else sends people to hell? That someone else does the judging? If this is the case then please explain as it would contradict the Bible and possible make a lot of people quickly switch who they are desperately praying to for salvation!

I'm saying that maybe there is no courtroom. No one weighs up the sins we've committed against the good works we've done and sentences us. What we call the '[particular] judgment' is just a complete awareness of the state of our soul as we've put it in at the time of our death. People "send" themselves to Hell, because Hell is just a state of the human soul.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Punishment for what is irrelevant. Imposed by whom is expressly stated. Why ask a question when he's already told you the answer to it?

Punishment for what is not irrelevant - it exposes the model the person is using to understand judgment.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Punishment for what is not irrelevant - it exposes the model the person is using to understand judgment.

Of course it's irrelevant. He sats forth the conditions in his post; here are the purposes of punishment, God sends people to Hell (punishment), what purpose does it serve? You've yet to answer the question. The Bible expressly states in several passages that their is a Judgment Day and a Judge; unless you're tossing aside Scripture or following the RBHILL version (same thing), God sends people to Hell directly.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Of course it's irrelevant. He sats forth the conditions in his post; here are the purposes of punishment, God sends people to Hell (punishment), what purpose does it serve? You've yet to answer the question. The Bible expressly states in several passages that their is a Judgment Day and a Judge; unless you're tossing aside Scripture or following the RBHILL version (same thing), God sends people to Hell directly.

I'm not tossing aside Scripture - I'm just using Tradition to understand it.

Originally posted by telerion
Punishment does not logically follow in any sense. If you jump from a cliff (without something pushing you up), then you will fall; however, if you do wrong, you will not necessarily be punished. People escape punishment happens all the time.

Moreover, even if punishment did follow wrongdoing just as a fall follows a jump from a cliff, God can suspend ...[text shortened]... God just some one's secretary, keeping tabs on the naughty and nice for his real master, Muffy?

Punishment would follow logically if whatever it was that followed logically was punishment. 😛

I've have given my thoughts on hell previously -- they are quite simple. God gives a person what they want: if a person dies having rejected God then they get just that – a state of being without God (also called hell).

Originally posted by twhitehead
"A penalty for wrong doing" sounds rather like "punishment". The question is why punish?
Everything I have heard about hell implies that it is designed specifically for neverending punishment. (Seas of fire, tormented souls etc.)
If it is not punishment then what is it and what is its purpose?
If someone wants to go to heaven and is refused entry then that in itself is punishment whether hell exists or not.

Have you been reading Dante's Inferno again?

If someone wants to go to heaven and is refused entry then that in itself is punishment whether hell exists or not.

This is a weird question coming from a self-proclaimed atheist. How could you want to go to heaven not even believing it exists?

Originally posted by twhitehead
The forms of punishment that I know and understand of are for the following possible reasons:
1. To make people fear to repeat the mistake.
2. To deter others from making the same mistake.
3. To keep dangerous people away from other people so as to keep the other people safe.
4. Revenge or spite.
5. Unjust punishment where the person "punished" is no ...[text shortened]... sends a person to Hell, what is the motive? It looks closest to no 4. which is hardly justice.

I think your supposition is wrong. God doesn't send people to hell. People send themselves to hell. God has offered a way out through Jesus. We can either accept that way out, or not. The choice is totally up to each one of us. God wishes that none of us go to hell, but He's not willing to remove our freewill to prevent us from going there. So, some will choose not to accept the offer Jesus made, and will therefore end up in hell.

Hell isn't a scare tatic, it's a heads-up.

DF

Originally posted by DragonFriend
I think your supposition is wrong. God doesn't send people to hell. People send themselves to hell. God has offered a way out through Jesus. We can either accept that way out, or not. The choice is totally up to each one of us. God wishes that none of us go to hell, but He's not willing to remove our freewill to prevent us from going there. So, some wil ...[text shortened]... ade, and will therefore end up in hell.

Hell isn't a scare tatic, it's a heads-up.

DF

So basically, God throws us into the deep end, knowing full well that we cannot swim, and then merely* offers His hand as the only alternative to a watery grave? That's some messed up, demented God you worship. At any rate, which is the more dastardly act: God's throwing the aquatically challenged person in, or the aquatically challenged person's failure/refusal to accept God's hand?


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*What, God doesn't want to get his fine clothes wet?

A little cut and paste action from the thread on the attributes of God. Maybe it will throw some light on the subject of God's justice, old school-style.


"His justice administers the penalties and blessings which are demanded by His perfect righteousness.

God's penalties are not vindictive, but vindicative. With unchangeable sin and evil there is unchangeable condemnation and judgment; thus God is shown to be consistent.

The most dramatic display of God's justice is at the cross where Christ was judged as a substitute for us."

So much for not wanting to get His clothes wet.