Justice and Hell

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Apparently a robot gives God more joy, because that's what he ends up with in heaven for eternity.

All your suffering is for naught, because you'll be deprived of your free will once you reach heaven. People wouldn't need 'new bodies' if they could overcome sin.

I thought you said that there was no more temptation in heaven with Lucifer and his ...[text shortened]... ut you also say the remaining angels have free will, so they could fall, tempt others, etc.

Exactly. Unfortunately, dj2 will not respond to the point, but some of us can read and appreciate what you're saying.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Apparently a robot gives God more joy, because that's what he ends up with in heaven for eternity.

Me thinks it gives God as much joy to see his creation choose Him by their own free on earth.

All your suffering is for naught, because you'll be deprived of your free will once you reach heaven. People wouldn't need 'new bodies' if they could once they saw what God did to Lucifer. Me thinks they would not exchange Heaven for Hell.

I don't see why a God who expects perfection would get much joy out of the choices of an intrinsically flawed ( "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" ) human race.

I still don't see why we couldn't just start out in heaven and avoid suffering in the first place. Since heaven's human residents change into robots as they enter, they are in the robot state for 99.99999999% of their existence (approaching 100% the longer that their 'infinite' life lasts). Why not just omit the pitiful fraction of existence with all its needless suffering?

If Lucifer was able to rebel because of pride, despite knowing how powerful God was, then another angel could do the same. He might flatter himself, thinking to succeed where Lucifer failed.

Originally posted by telerion
Exactly. Unfortunately, dj2 will not respond to the point, but some of us can read and appreciate what you're saying.

Thanks, telerion.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
I don't see why a God who expects perfection would get much joy out of the choices of an intrinsically flawed ( "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" ) human race.

I still don't see why we couldn't just start out in heaven and avoid suffering in the first place. Since heaven's human residents change into robots as they enter, they ...[text shortened]... l could do the same. He might flatter himself, thinking to succeed where Lucifer failed.

I don't see why a God who expects perfection would get much joy out of the choices of an intrinsically flawed ( "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" ) human race.

Why not? Would it not give God joy to see his creation turn back to Him? Would it not give Him joy to clothe his creation with the glory that they once had? Would it not give God joy to see His creation confessing their sin and turning from it?

I still don't see why we couldn't just start out in heaven and avoid suffering in the first place. Since heaven's human residents change into robots as they enter, they are in the robot state for 99.99999999% of their existence (approaching 100% the longer that their 'infinite' life lasts). Why not just omit the pitiful fraction of existence with all its needless suffering?

Who knows the mind of God? Not even I. I did not say we would change into robots when we enter Heaven. A robot cannot experience joy. In Heaven we will experience much more than joy.

If Lucifer was able to rebel because of pride, despite knowing how powerful God was, then another angel could do the same. He might flatter himself, thinking to succeed where Lucifer failed.

Me thinks God is going to create a new Heaven and a new Earth were this will not happen again.

Revelation 21:1 - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away...

Originally posted by telerion
Exactly. Unfortunately, dj2 will not respond to the point, but some of us can read and appreciate what you're saying.

Would you be so kind as to highlight the point that I may have missed?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Why the fire? For what purpose other than those listed in my origional post?
Originally posted by dj2becker
Justice.

So we are back to what seems to be the opinion of others in this thread:
God is supremely just but only He knows what justice is and what the purpose behind that justice is.

Here on earth most "justice" has a reason or purpose for punishment for a crime commited. I was not asking weather hell as punishment was just but weather it also had a known purpose. So far there are two basic answers:
1. It is not punishment.
2. It is Gods justice and we cannot understand it.

No 2 relates to a another arguement going on in this thread. If we cant understand it, is it still justice and how do we know it is justice other than the apparent declaration that God is Just therefore anything he does must be just. Justice then takes on a new meaning. It is not what we think of as justice but rather whatever God does is justice even when it is not justice in our terms.

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]I don't see why a God who expects perfection would get much joy out of the choices of an intrinsically flawed ( "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" ) human race.

Why not? Would it not give God joy to see his creation turn back to Him? Would it not give Him joy to clothe his creation with the glory that they once had? Would it n ...[text shortened]... new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away...[/b]

God would see a lot of violations of his commandments (since there are so many of them to keep, and some of them seem to go against natural human behavior), and very few instances of people obeying them all. Sounds depressing from his standpoint.

A robot refers to someone without free will. Just paint a happy face on each one, and voila! They're permanently experiencing joy.

The new heaven and new earth does nothing for our dilemma. If they're the ideal, and there is no chance for temptation, or sin, or making mistakes, then we should have just started out there. This has the added benefit of saving a lot of people from hell.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
God would see a lot of violations of his commandments (since there are so many of them to keep, and some of them seem to go against natural human behavior), and very few instances of people obeying them all. Sounds depressing from his standpoint.

A robot refers to someone without free will. Just paint a happy face on each one, and voila! They're pe d have just started out there. This has the added benefit of saving a lot of people from hell.

God would see a lot of violations of his commandments (since there are so many of them to keep, and some of them seem to go against natural human behavior), and very few instances of people obeying them all. Sounds depressing from his standpoint.

I believe that that is the exact reason why Jesus Christ came to this earth. I believe that it would be impossible to keep the laws of God if it were not for the person of Jesus Christ.

He who knew no sin came to this world and became sin. He carried the sin of the world upon Him. He died and rose again. I beleive it is only in the power of His ressurection that man is able to overcome sin and keep God's laws.

John 1:29 - Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

A robot refers to someone without free will. Just paint a happy face on each one, and voila! They're permanently experiencing joy.

I believe it gives God more joy to have his creation experiences true joy, which I believe can already be experienced on earth, when we get victory over sin. This is far better than God having to paint a smile on their face.

The new heaven and new earth does nothing for our dilemma.

True. Jesus Christ does everything for our dilemma. The new heaven and new earth is merely a later benefit.

If they're the ideal, and there is no chance for temptation, or sin, or making mistakes, then we should have just started out there.

The problem is that Satan would only be abolished until then. And thus Satan needs to be overcome first.

Revelation 3:21 - To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

This has the added benefit of saving a lot of people from hell.

But God is not willing that anyone to perish, but for all to be saved. He has created the perfect way throgh Jesus Christ. It is up to man to choose.

And remember this: God created man in the perfect environment. Man messed up by disobedience. God did not have to intervene but He did. He made the perfect way to save man from their dilemma, but it is up to them whether they will receive His help or not.

Originally posted by Halitose
Why do you think #4 in particular? Why can't punishment be a reason in and of itself: A penalty imposed for wrongdoing?

Well said.

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]God would see a lot of violations of his commandments (since there are so many of them to keep, and some of them seem to go against natural human behavior), and very few instances of people obeying them all. Sounds depressing from his standpoint.

I believe that that is the exact reason why Jesus Christ came to this earth. I believe that it would ...[text shortened]... save man from their dilemma, but it is up to them whether they will receive His help or not.[/b]

Ok, so God should take joy in Jesus, and not the worthless humans that could not measure up to the 'standard'.

The 'painted smile on the face' was a metaphor for phony joy. Sure, a person without free will could be programmed to experience joy, but what value would it have? The human hasn't done a thing to deserve it. The bible claims the new heaven and earth is far more than an 'added benefit'; it is the place where the saved allegedly spend the vast majority of their existence.

The 'dilemma' I'm referring to is this: Why didn't God start by creating the new heavens and the new earth, with new body humans that would not sin, suffer, or go to hell?. I'm not trying to address the 'christian' dilemma of what to do about our imperfections.

You don't need to 'overcome' Satan if he was never created in the first place. Surely, God could have forseen that he would cause trouble, and just skipped creating him.

For a God that's not willing for people to perish, he sure does a lousy job of actually stopping it from happening. Worse yet, the bible claims that he is the one who 'casts body and soul into hell'.

God didn't create the perfect environment. A perfect environment would have no 'forbidden fruit', and allow no possibility of error or death.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Ok, so God should take joy in Jesus, and not the worthless humans that could not measure up to the 'standard'.

The 'painted smile on the face' was a metaphor for phony joy. Sure, a person without free will could be programmed to experience joy, but what value would it have? The human hasn't done a thing to deserve it. The bible claims the new heave ...[text shortened]... ld have no 'forbidden fruit', and allow no possibility of error or death.

So you're basically saying that God should have started with the robots?

Originally posted by orfeo
So you're basically saying that God should have started with the robots?

Yep.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem

God didn't create the perfect environment. A perfect environment would have no 'forbidden fruit', and allow no possibility of error or death.
You equate a perfect environment with one where there is no freedom. A perfect environment was provided, wherein a free will agent could make a decision. Perfect environment is not the solution.

He has given man every conceivable historical trend within which to show himself worth. Man has, time after time, failed. In all historical situations, man's environment has not been the issue.

God will establish on earth (again) another perfect environment, after which, Satan will be released from his temporary prison sentence. Man will (again) join Satan in rebellion against God... and this perfect environment is marked by the rulership of the Lord Jesus Christ!

An experiment for God, just to see what would happen? Hardly. He knows the end from the beginning, and is not surprised by anything; it's all been decreed.

This (life) is for the benefit of the creature, not the Creator. We need God.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
God will establish on earth (again) another perfect environment, after which, Satan will be released from his temporary prison sentence. Man will (again) join Satan in rebellion against God... and this perfect environment is marked by the rulership of the Lord Jesus Christ!

Will Lord Christ ride a dragon and wield a vorpal sword, too? Jeesh, are you listening to yourself?

Originally posted by bbarr
Will Lord Christ ride a dragon and wield a vorpal sword, too? Jeesh, are you listening to yourself?

Sure I do. It sounds kinda like this

tap, tap, tap-tap-tap, tap, tap, tap-tap-tap-tap, tap tap-tap-tap-taptap, tap

Why, bbar-rabb, what do you hear?