Justice and Hell

Originally posted by LemonJello
As usual, you fail to grasp the actual content of the debate. The content of this debate does not concern whether or not the sinner is compatible with heaven*; the question is whether or not the concept of hell (as in, a place of eternal punishment and torture) is compatible with an all-good God. You and others have already made the claim that the act o the last thing I want is to spend all eternity with Him whilst we stroke each other's egos.

As usual, you fail to grasp the actual content of the debate.

As ususal, you fail to see the point I was making.

The content of this debate does not concern whether or not the sinner is compatible with heaven.

I was perfectly aware of this.

the question is whether or not the concept of hell (as in, a place of eternal punishment and torture) is compatible with an all-good God

I was perfectly aware of this.

You and others have already made the claim that the act of sentencing one to eternal damnation is compatible with God's omnibenevolence and His "perfect righteousness"

And your point is?

I am merely calling your bluff: as usual, the onus falls to your lot, theist.

As always...

So, as I already directed above, please demonstrate how one may be morally deserving of eternal damnation, and also show how this type of eternal suffering is logically necessary for the greater good (and is thus compatible with the God you have defined)

The 'eternal damnation' is an eternal seperation from God. As good and evil cannot be reconciled, as light and darkness cannot be mixed, so God and sin cannot co-exist in harmony "under the same roof", and thus the seperation.

If a human being dies in his sin, meaning his soul is defiled and belongs to Satan (the prince of Darkness) he cannot enter the presence of God. It's as simple as that.

Satan gets the soul to do be tortured with him. I believe it is Satan that does the torturing. And guess why. Because man reminds him of God.

But God has made the way for mankind to be cleansed from sin and to be made acceptable to Him, yet Satan knows that his fate is sealed and will turn mankind against God, so that he can have the pleasure of them being tortured together with him.

Originally posted by dj2becker
If a human being dies in his sin, meaning his soul is defiled and belongs to Satan (the prince of Darkness) he cannot enter the presence of God. It's as simple as that.

Satan gets the soul to do be tortured with him. I believe it is Satan that does the torturing. And guess why. Because man reminds him of God.

So if you are a good person you go to heaven even if you dont believe in God? Or is goodness belief in God not your actions in life?

Why do defiled souls "belong" to Satan, it makes no sense.

Why is Satan tortured and by Whom. Why does he torture others. What is the benefit to him?

..... so that he can have the pleasure of them being tortured together with him.
He gets pleasure from the company of others? Pleasure from the pain of others?

Was Satan punished? Why?

Originally posted by twhitehead
So if you are a good person you go to heaven even if you dont believe in God? Or is goodness belief in God not your actions in life?

Why do defiled souls "belong" to Satan, it makes no sense.

Why is Satan tortured and by Whom. Why does he torture others. What is the benefit to him?

..... so that he can have the pleasure of them being tortured ure from the company of others? Pleasure from the pain of others?

Was Satan punished? Why?

So if you are a good person you go to heaven even if you dont believe in God?

That is not what I said. How can you be cleansed from sin if you don't believe in God?

Or is goodness belief in God not your actions in life?

I am afraid I don't understand.

Why do defiled souls "belong" to Satan, it makes no sense.

Because Satan binds people with sin. Defiled souls have not been cleansed from sin. "Sin" can be compared to "chains" that Satan uses to bind the people that he owns. By doing sin man worships Satan and thus he has ownership of them that are slaves of sin.

Why is Satan tortured and by Whom.

Satan was an angel created by God, but rebelled against God. He is thus a fallen angel. His time of eternal damnation is coming, when he and all his followers will be cast into the lake of fire.

Why does he torture others. What is the benefit to him?

His time of torture is coming. By binding people with sin he can ensure that he has lots of companions to share his agony.

He gets pleasure from the company of others? Pleasure from the pain of others?

Because man is created in God's image, he will have pleasure in inflicting pain upon his creation.

Was Satan punished? Why?

He was banned from Heaven because of his rebellion against God. At the end of time, as we know it, he and all his followers will be cast into the lake of fire.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Because Satan binds people with sin. Defiled souls have not been cleansed from sin. "Sin" can be compared to "chains" that Satan uses to bind the people that he owns. By doing sin man worships Satan and thus he has ownership of them that are slaves of sin.

So, if I dont believe in God then if am covered in sin and therefore belong to Satan! I thought I was made by God how come I now belong to Satan? What happened to free will?

Satan was an angel created by God, but rebelled against God. He is thus a fallen angel. His time of eternal damnation is coming, when he and all his followers will be cast into the lake of fire.

So you do believe in a hell which includes fire. Is this punishment and what is the purpose of punishing Satan and his followers?

I personally dont see how I could be his follower if I dont believe he exists but I guess that is a matter of point of view.

His time of torture is coming. By binding people with sin he can ensure that he has lots of companions to share his agony.
Still no explanation of why?

Because man is created in God's image, he will have pleasure in inflicting pain upon his creation.
I still dont see why.

He was banned from Heaven because of his rebellion against God. At the end of time, as we know it, he and all his followers will be cast into the lake of fire.
Why the fire? For what purpose other than those listed in my origional post?

Originally posted by LemonJello
Neither of you get it. If your God is omnipotent and omniscient; and if 'hell' exists and people get sent there; then it is only by His will that these states are realized. What more ammunition does the atheist need to flat-out reject Him as an entity deserving of worship, even if He does exist? Y'all need to get real and worship someone who actually d ...[text shortened]... at is what we take hell to be).


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**e.g., Chuck Norris.

I think you've got 2 assumptions incorrect.
In another post in this thread you mentioned that God is all-good. He is also all-just. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but look at it this way. He knows so much more about being good and being just than we do that His skills are off the scale from our point of view. And its His just side that requres there be some kind of downside to our choices (else, they aren't really choices, are they)
The 2nd assumption is that our destiny is in God's control. He has given that to us via freewill. Freewill not only transfers the abilitiy to choose our destiny to us, it also transfers the responsibility for it to us. God has given us what we need, it's up to us to make use of it or not.
So you see, if we end up in hell it's entirely our fault.

DF

Originally posted by telerion
Exactly. When will these theists take their god as seriously as we do? I really think they make this crap up on the fly half the time. The other half they're just repeating what they heard in Sunday school.

You can see my post count has dropped significantly of late. I guess after all this time, the sport of playing ring-around-the-rosey with these guys is getting dull.

Oh, and the research is going well. 🙂

The underlying problem here, again, is seeing part and imagining the whole. We may as well look at a grain of sand and induce a sandwich universe, before we isolate any of God's attributes.

As has been stated previously, one cannot focus in on one (or several) of God's attributes and ever hope to determine His essence. Yet, for some reason, a few of you persist in doing just that thing. For instance, one may as well argue how God's love disproves His justice. To paraphrase W.C. Fields, 'anyone who could love me is not worth being loved by.' Again, isolation only leads to absurdity and contradiction. As the universe is neither absurd or contradictory, neither is its Creator absurd or contraditory.

However, when unaware of the parameters of God's essence, there is nothing but contradiction and absurdity. For this reason, I initiated the thread, "The Attributes of God," which outlines and defines the different attributes of God's essence.

Assuming that God is a personal God, it is His responsibility to relay His message to His creatures. Assuming the Bible is that message, the thread numerates God's essence. Should you find a contradiction there--- at His source, not in the artificial logic vaccums of man's constructions--- then you will possess a legitimate gripe. To be sure, better minds than mine have tried, and it is doubtful that better minds than those are to be found here. Nonetheless, give it a shot.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Because a 'flawless' human being would not have free-will.

If a flawless being does not have free-will, then a flawless God does not have free-will, and your entire belief system crumbles to the ground.

Originally posted by DragonFriend
[God] knows so much more about being good and being just than we do that His skills are off the scale from our point of view.

If this is true, we cannot verify the claim that God is just. He could get away with unjust actions, and easily deceive us.

😴

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
If this is true, we cannot verify the claim that God is just. He could get away with unjust actions, and easily deceive us.

Although their language is a bit impercise, they are attempting to touch on qualities of the characteristics of God. As He is quite apart from our normal vernacular, often times words fail to convey the exact meanings.

Of course in creating a free-will creature that creature is able to obey God without constraint. The Lord Jesus Christ deprived Himself of the function of deity, taking upon Himself the form of man. As that man, a free-will creature, He was able to not sin.

To posit such absurdity as God acting in unjust ways is silly. Such action would require Him to act in self-contradiction, thereby rendering Him impotent.

If you require more technical delineations of God's essence, feel free to peruse the thread entitled, "The Attributes of God."

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
If this is true, we cannot verify the claim that God is just. He could get away with unjust actions, and easily deceive us.

That's self-contradictory. You're saying He's sooo just that He can be unjust???

DF

Originally posted by DragonFriend
That's self-contradictory. You're saying He's sooo just that He can be unjust???

DF

No, I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to claim that God is perfectly just while also admitting that said justice is far beyond your own comprehension. You are forced to take God at his word; thus, you risk deception by him.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Although their language is a bit impercise, they are attempting to touch on qualities of the characteristics of God. As He is quite apart from our normal vernacular, often times words fail to convey the exact meanings.

Of course in creating a free-will creature that creature is able to obey God without constraint. The Lord Jesus Christ deprived Himsel ...[text shortened]... ineations of God's essence, feel free to peruse the thread entitled, "The Attributes of God."

It's perfectly rational to admit the possibility that God may not be who we think he is. The odds of us being wrong about a being very much more powerful than we are are exceedingly high.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
No, I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to claim that God is perfectly just while also admitting that said justice is far beyond your own comprehension. You are forced to take God at his word; thus, you risk deception by him.

I don't think I'm following your thought.
Yes, God knows more about being just than we do, but I don't see how that can lead to His deception of us.

If He is deceiving us, then the outcome can either benefit us, detriment us, or neither.
If neither, then the deception is moot (and probably undetectable).
If it benefits us, then at who's cost? Since He is God of all, it couldn't be another human (then he'd be unjust) so it must be at His cost. And since He's willing to pay it, it would be a just deception.
If it detriments us, then at who's gain. If another human or Himself, it's not just to us, and so He would not be just in doing so.

DF

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
It's perfectly rational to admit the possibility that God may not be who we think he is. The odds of us being wrong about a being very much more powerful than we are are exceedingly high.

If we are to draw our own conclusions in a vaccuum, I'd agree. But God has interacted with us. That's the whole purpose of our creation. And through this relationship with Him we can come to know Him. No guessing required.

DF