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24 Mar 15
Originally posted by sonshipgod is a hypothetical.If God removed the prize of eternity, everybody dies and is gone forever. Would you still love and pray to God
Hypotheticals are fun and imaginative.
They are like fun puzzles for the mind.
What is more important to me is what [b] IS .
I am not that concerned with what nifty hypotheticals we can concoct.
I prai ...[text shortened]... sire no more,
And I desire no more.
[Hymn # 600, Living Stream Ministry - Hymns ] [/quote][/b]
Originally posted by sonshipIf you claim what he was/is is "history" then that places some onus on you. Is Jesus' divinity confirmed by any historical source aside from the religious literature that makes assertions about his divinity? You said "Jesus is history".
Jesus is history.
We can choose to believe in Him and His words or not to believe - AS He so taught.
24 Mar 15
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeWell Ghost, you've been misinformed. You should see the Word of God as just that, and not the word of man, which invariably will cast the Truth to the wind for his own subjective interpretations of reality.
The problem i have with that, having studied the history and formation of the bible, is that it was written by many different men, with many different historical and social motivations, over many different decades. Add to that, it was man who decided which books to include in the bible and which to exclude, and the serious contradictions this has cau ...[text shortened]... you were able to catch the wind and hold it prisoner in a book, well, it would cease to be wind.
".., having studied the history and formation of the bible,.."
The one written by men? The Bible tells its own story, which is in direct contradiction to the one you learned, subsequently causing you to think it contains contradictions.
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Originally posted by sonshipThat's suppose to be Clark Gable.
That's kind of general.
You could also say Babe Ruth is legend.
You could also say Clark Cable is legend.
The point is that a real historical person may have some be spoken of as being a legend.
I don't believe that Jesus turned clay pigeons into real pigeons as a young boy. But I do believe that Jesus rose Lazarus from the grave.
I could the former apocryphal writing to be spurious and legendary.
But I do take the Gospel of John to be not legendary but a truthful account.
So we have a problem.
Should I dismiss Jesus Christ as history because there is SOME legendary spurious mythical writing found in early church history? This would be to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
I am more likely to discern between those writings which I think I can trust and those which I don't think I can.
Now the good news is that this work of separating the shaft from the wheat was worked upon far far closer to the events by others before me. Those battles as to what was canonical about Jesus and what was apocryphal was waged long before I arrived.
I can re-invent the wheel. But I can learn from what earlier concerned minds were led to conclude.
So why would I reject the story of Jesus the boy turning clay pigeons into real birds but receive the story of Jesus raising Lazarus from the grave?
There is something of a smell test spiritually and morally. The former account simply doesn't past the smell test. It is sensational and frivolous. I recall the story being vindictive and more the reflection of a prankish imagination.
But the story of Jesus raising Lazarus is weighty with aspects consistent not with a vindictive brat but a deep moral teacher. The many things surrounding the event just bare the marks of the way Jesus was. This account is in the 11th chapter of John.
It smacks of realism that John mentions that the opposers of Jesus afterwards sought not only to put Jesus to death but to re-put Lazarus to death ALSO !! Because the miracle was causing many of the Jews to believe in this Rabbi to the rage of His opponents.
"And the chief priests took counsel to kill Lazarus also, Because on account of him many of the Jews went away and believed into Jesus." (John 12:11)
This is consistent with the near insane rage and subsequent execution of Christ by His religious enemies.
It also is consistent that their worse nightmare happened after this miracle. The Greeks, Gentiles, began to be interested in seeing Jesus. This made the leaders of the Jewish community very afraid for the health of their nation. They regarded the Gentiles as only worthy to be crushed by a military defeat from any Messiah.
"The crowd therefore that was with Him when He called Lazarus out of the tomb and raised him from the dead testified. For this reason the crowd also went and met Him, because they heard that He had done this sign.
The Pharisees then said to one another, You see that you are not doing anything worthwhile, behold the world has gone after Him.
And there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the feast. These then came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida of Galilee, and asked him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
Philip came and told Andrew, Andrew came, and Philip too, and they told Jesus.(John 11:17-22)
Jesus does not take it as an indication that He is soon to be executed to death. Yet His death will mean the release of the divine life that is within Him into many others.
"And Jesus answered tjem, saying, The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Truly, truly I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies it abides alone, but if it dies it bears much fruit." (v.23,24)
There is no comparison between the profound context of the Lazarus account and the spurious, curiosity tickling, sensational apocryphal story of the boy Jesus turning clay pigeons into live ones.
The latter legendary myth does not lead me to dismiss the realism of the Gospel of John.
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Originally posted by sonshipSorry I was expecting you to extract which meaning of the word legend I was using from the context of the conversation. I was refering to historical but not verifiable stories.
That's kind of general.
You could also say Babe Ruth is legend.
You could also say Clark Cable is legend.
Originally posted by josephwShall we compare Degrees on the subject, or just indoctrination?
How condescending of you. Clever you must think you are twisting away in denial in avoidance of a discussion about a topic you know you know nothing about.
I attempted to enter a discussion with you on the subject, but received no real answer to my questions. I am genuinely interested to hear your views on the early church who decided which books to include and exclude from the bible. (No learned theologian would deny of course that books were excluded during its formation; additional gospels etc). Is it your position that this book selection process was not decided by man?