Lying is always bad - why???

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
There surely must be such a thing as a “white lie”.
If we can show just one example of a white lie that is so extreme that none of us is willing to dispute it then, logically, we must all agree that lying is not always bad:

If telling a little lie is the only way to trick a homicidal terrorist from pressing the red button on a doomsday machine th ...[text shortened]... e isn't a doomsday machine but a dishwasher he would then not destroy all life, is a white lie?

i already gave that example:

telling your children that granma died peacefully in her sleep when in fact she was pumped full of morphine and still couldn't bear the pain and it lasted several weeks is not the lying bible forbids

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
why is it better? the lie brightens his day and doesn't hurt him. he is 4, he won't take your praise, drop out of college and become an artist.

what is better is that you find something other than the lie, you nor Agers have demonstrated why it is to be preferred, its like using expletives in your vocabulary, entirely unnecessary! Examples were given to encourage rather than give in to pretentiousness.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]I'm sure not only Robbie Carrobie holds that lying is always bad (because the Bible says so)

Yes, indeed. This was quite a universal Christian teaching until recent times. The Catholic Church taught, and perhaps still does, that lying is an intrinsic evil, first because it violates the natural purpose of human communication, and second, from a con ong, is permissible as (by far) the least evil.[/b]

Cheers for that one Conrau K, lest you think I'm ignoring it, I'll give my response to this one likely late tomorrow. Reveal Hidden Content

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what is better is that you find something other than the lie, you nor Agers have demonstrated why it is to be preferred, its like using expletives in your vocabulary, entirely unnecessary! Examples were given to encourage rather than give in to pretentiousness.

so let's say a woman tells her husband "husband, i hate you and i hate the little monsters you call our children, i am leaving you and leaving the bratz, i am going to las vegas to be a porn actress and a prostitute in my spear time."

let's say the kids ask "father, why did mother leave?".

should the father tell the truth? remember, the kid didn't ask "where is mother?", he asked for the reason specifically. also remember that omission is another form of lie, not that the father is given any loopholes in this matter. he can either lie to the kid or leave him scarred for life that his mother doesn't love him.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
so let's say a woman tells her husband "husband, i hate you and i hate the little monsters you call our children, i am leaving you and leaving the bratz, i am going to las vegas to be a porn actress and a prostitute in my spear time."

let's say the kids ask "father, why did mother leave?".

should the father tell the truth? remember, the kid didn't as either lie to the kid or leave him scarred for life that his mother doesn't love him.

why need the father go into details, can he not simply state that the boys mother was unfaithful. Was it a lie, nope! did the father need to resort to lying, nope! Weak and wimpy Christians must resort to the lie Zhalanzi. But i suppose if you are going to water down the word of God, why not take liberties with the truth elsewhere!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
why need the father go into details, can he not simply state that the boys mother was unfaithful. Was it a lie, nope! did the father need to resort to lying, nope! Weak and wimpy Christians must resort to the lie Zhalanzi. But i suppose if you are going to water down the word of God, why not take liberties with the truth elsewhere!

"why did mother leave"? not what was she? if she was unfaithful she could have asked for custody of the children. she could come visit sometimes.

"why doesn't mother come visit us father?"

let me earn an easy godwin point here :

- gestapo officer "hello sir, have you seen any jew hiding in the neighbourhood?"
- robbie carrobie : "well i don't agree with you nazis but God forbids me to lie so here's the truth : the old Tom down the road keeps 3 little jewish girls in a secret room.

Originally posted by shorbock
let me earn an easy godwin point here :

- gestapo officer "hello sir, have you seen any jew hiding in the neighbourhood?"
- robbie carrobie : "well i don't agree with you nazis but God forbids me to lie so here's the truth : the old Tom down the road keeps 3 little jewish girls in a secret room.

As a Jehovahs witness i would be more than likely to be in the concentration camp, rather than outwith, read your history! For God knows the French sent enough of them to their deaths!

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
"why did mother leave"? not what was she? if she was unfaithful she could have asked for custody of the children. she could come visit sometimes.

"why doesn't mother come visit us father?"

My goodness, your guys are really clutching at the ol strawety straws, no you have not in one instance demonstrated why lying is to be preferred. So give it up and cleanse your concisenesses! Why dont you demonstrate the virtue of honesty instead of perverting what is good?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
As a Jehovahs witness i would be more than likely to be in the concentration camp, rather than outwith, read your history! For God knows the French sent enough of them to their deaths!

nice save!! totally got the point.


ok, let me change shorbocks totally flawed example. shame on him for not being able to attune to your ... intellect.

- gestapo officer "hello sir, have you seen any jew hiding in the neighbourhood?"
- someone other than robbie carrobie who is definetely in no danger of getting himself in a concentration camp : "well i don't agree with you nazis but God forbids me to lie so here's the truth : the old Tom down the road keeps 3 little jewish girls in a secret room.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
My goodness, your guys are really clutching at the ol strawety straws, no you have not in one instance demonstrated why lying is to be preferred. So give it up and cleanse your concisenesses! Why dont you demonstrate the virtue of honesty instead of perverting what is good?

answer the damn question: is honesty prefered in both shorbocks and mine example? to make it easy on you to think, and harder to dodge the questions AGAIN, here is the list:


- gestapo officer "hello sir, have you seen any jew hiding in the neighbourhood?"
- someone other than robbie carrobie who is definetely in no danger of getting himself in a concentration camp : "well i don't agree with you nazis but God forbids me to lie so here's the truth : the old Tom down the road keeps 3 little jewish girls in a secret room.


and mine:
scene 1:
mother: husband, i am leaving you and the little monsters you made me spawn out of my vag BECAUSE i hate you all and i wanna go to las vegas to become a porn actress.

scene 2 (next day after the woman had left):
kids: father, WHY had mother left, please tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
father: your mother left you and me because she hates us and wants to be a porn actress.

in both cases, the questions were clear and didn't allow for loopholes. even so, omission is still a lie. and not answering anything to avoid lying would cause further problems (more apparent in the case of the gestapo officer detaining the citizen for refusing to answer)

funny thing: i was gonna ask agerg why did he post such an easy thread in the forums. i mean this should be easy, even fundamentalists can't find lying to be unacceptable in EVERY circumstance. even fundamentalists cannot think a truth that hurts people is preferable to a lie that doesn't (like the nazi example).


i was wrong. some fundamentalists can support the most abominable acts in the name of their supposedly god of love.

robbie, you are making a mockery out of god. you and people like you are the reason christians ( and other believers) are a laughing matter among civilized people. you are the kind of person that allowed the spanish inquisition to happen or slavery in america. if you truly believe what you say and if you would ever be in a position to express that belief, you would cause some evil shaite. that would make you an evil shaite. until then i can only hope the real god has mercy on you and doesn't judge you too harshly for the way your jw's and your parents broke you into a despicable human being.

Originally posted by Agerg
The thread was here:
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=127783&page=&page=13


Though my phrasing of the scenario is slightly embarrasing looking back, the part of his response to which I refer was:
Alas how it pangs me!!, the situation you give to support your hypothesis is of itself entirely hypothetical in itself, and thus, i am ng my original premise, not assumptive but firmly grounded with in the realms of truth.

robbie carrobie

do you comprehend the concept of showing a piece of logic to be invalid by applying it to the hypothetical?
For example, if you said this piece of flawed logic:

1, “if blue whales are bigger than any known extinct dinosaur then there is no animal bigger than a blue whale”

the premise is correct (blue whales ARE bigger than any known extinct dinosaur) and the conclusion is correct (there IS no animal bigger than a blue whale) but the logic is invalid because the conclusion doesn't follow from its premise.
One way to show that piece of logic to be invalid is by applying it to the hypothetical scenario of elephants being bigger than blue whales:

IF elephants ARE bigger than blue whales then that fact would contradict the conclusion of argument 1, without contradicting its premise thus that hypothetical scenario PROVES that the logic of argument 1, is invalid.
And you cannot say “but elephants ARE NOT bigger than blue whales and so this is irrelevant...”
because that is evading the point which is, the mere fact that considering the hypothetical would demonstrate the logic to be invalid -would you deny this? Would you concede that this is an example of the usefulness of considering the hypothetical?
That would be just one example of the many kinds of ways considering the hypothetical is useful and relevant.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
nice save!! totally got the point.


ok, let me change shorbocks totally flawed example. shame on him for not being able to attune to your ... intellect.

- gestapo officer "hello sir, have you seen any jew hiding in the neighbourhood?"
- someone other than robbie carrobie who is definetely in no danger of getting himself in a concentration camp : "w here's the truth : the old Tom down the road keeps 3 little jewish girls in a secret room.

i wouldn't push your luck Zhalanzi the Romanians are hardly any less reprehensible than the French! Perhaps we can talk of the acts of those Romanian so called Christians during WWII, shall we? Nor would i talk of making a mockery of God, considering you have watered down and deviated from scriptural truth, disowned the teaching of the Christ in order to establish your own point of view if it were in some way a kind of universal truth. You may speculate and produce all the hypothetical situations you like, its your severed conscience not mine, lying is not to be preferred over truth and no amount of postulating on your part will make that fact any different. If you want to condone lying, then that's your business, dont ask me to defend your nefarious action.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
robbie carrobie

do you comprehend the concept of showing a piece of logic to be invalid by applying it to the hypothetical?
For example, if you said this piece of flawed logic:

1, “if blue whales are bigger than any known extinct dinosaur then there is no animal bigger than a blue whale”

the premise is correct (blue whales ARE bigger than ...[text shortened]... just one example of the many kinds of ways considering the hypothetical is useful and relevant.

sorry i have no fellowship with those who show an extreme contempt for Christ, and scriptural things, perhaps someone else shall read your text and answer it!