Made in the image of God

@bigdogg said
The main trouble is, "supernatural" does not explain anything.

You might as well say it was magic.

I prefer God over magic. When we say from X, we get Y, so we can get Y if we have X. We cannot say it is from X; we get X because there is no X to get X without X. Therefore our natural world cannot beget itself from nothing, so something beyond it that transcends it started it.

@kellyjay said
Here is the thing, God is good, our problem is we are not, and some of us are so far from being good they don't even grasp the difference.

Yes, I know what your faith is but simply reciting it does not address the point I made. Don't run away, KellyJay.

@kellyjay said
Therefore our natural world cannot beget itself from nothing, so something beyond it that transcends it started it.

And that "something" is a torturer God?

@kellyjay said
I prefer God over magic. When we say from X, we get Y, so we can get Y if we have X. We cannot say it is from X; we get X because there is no X to get X without X. Therefore our natural world cannot beget itself from nothing, so something beyond it that transcends it started it.

You keep asserting that the universe cannot arise from nothing, but you have no proof of it.

Quantum Mechanics shows that particles and anti particles pop into exist out of nowhere, then annihilate each other, over and over again.

The other possibility is that there was never nothing. The big bang may have been the start of time itself.

In either case, God is unnecessary to explain the beginning. So, I whip out Occam's Razor and remove him.

You arbitrarily gave God a pass on needing a cause himself; I will do the same for the Universe.

@bigdogg said
You keep asserting that the universe cannot arise from nothing, but you have no proof of it.

Quantum Mechanics shows that particles and anti particles pop into exist out of nowhere, then annihilate each other, over and over again.

The other possibility is that there was never nothing. The big bang may have been the start of time itself.

In either case, God is unneces ...[text shortened]...

You arbitrarily gave God a pass on needing a cause himself; I will do the same for the Universe.

You are saying they come from nothing to something? Really it could not be they are something and we are not advanced enough to keep tabs on them as they move about continually? You can tell the difference?

You believe nothing can produce anything at anytime then? So the universe makes perfect sense to you with that being true?

@bigdogg said
You keep asserting that the universe cannot arise from nothing, but you have no proof of it.

Quantum Mechanics shows that particles and anti particles pop into exist out of nowhere, then annihilate each other, over and over again.

The other possibility is that there was never nothing. The big bang may have been the start of time itself.

In either case, God is unneces ...[text shortened]...

You arbitrarily gave God a pass on needing a cause himself; I will do the same for the Universe.

An always existing universe? Impossible. An always existing God, sure, no problem.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
An always existing universe? Impossible. An always existing God, sure, no problem.

We date the beginning of the universe that a lie? In this universe everything has a cause that not true? Now you can start saying nothing can produce anything at any time, that then sounds reasonable to you?

Unless you change the definition of God being eternal that means He is without a cause.

@kellyjay said
We date the beginning of the universe that a lie? In this universe everything has a cause that not true? Now you can start saying nothing can produce anything at any time, that then sounds reasonable to you?

Unless you change the definition of God being eternal that means He is without a cause.

Well, I've told you at least 5 times I believe in an eternal universe and that matter has always existed, in one form or another. I'm sure I'll need to tell you so again in a few weeks.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Well, I've told you at least 5 times I believe in an eternal universe and that matter has always existed, in one form or another. I'm sure I'll need to tell you so again in a few weeks.

Yea I remember you telling me that, vague on why. You dismiss the dating of the universe because you have something that you trust more. So for you too it is faith?

@kellyjay said
You are saying they come from nothing to something? Really it could not be they are something and we are not advanced enough to keep tabs on them as they move about continually? You can tell the difference?

You believe nothing can produce anything at anytime then? So the universe makes perfect sense to you with that being true?

Physicists are saying that particles and anti particles pop into existence and annihilate one another.

With QM, I definitely think we are not seeing the whole picture.

I don't know how the universe got started. I don't think anyone really does. My best guess is that there was always something. I only included the other hypothesis to show that some physicists think otherwise.

The universe does not make perfect sense to me, period. I think the question of how it began is far too large to rely on merely one's own sense of what is reasonable. We need more evidence.

@kellyjay said
Yea I remember you telling me that, vague on why. You dismiss the dating of the universe because you have something that you trust more. So for you too it is faith?

They can date the 'Big Bang' but I don't consider that the start of everything.

The very same eternity you apply to God I apply to the universe.

@bigdogg said
Physicists are saying that particles and anti particles pop into existence and annihilate one another.

With QM, I definitely think we are not seeing the whole picture.

I don't know how the universe got started. I don't think anyone really does. My best guess is that there was always something. I only included the other hypothesis to show that some physicists think other ...[text shortened]... gan is far too large to rely on merely one's own sense of what is reasonable. We need more evidence.

I don’t believe that we are called to know anything for sure, just have faith. If your going to wait until something is confirmed beyond doubt, good luck with that.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
They can date the 'Big Bang' but I don't consider that the start of everything.

The very same eternity you apply to God I apply to the universe.

Well by definition God is eternal according to scripture, a eternal universe source is found, where? Science? What?

Something that has been around as long who would know?

@kellyjay said
Well by definition God is eternal according to scripture, a eternal universe source is found, where? Science? What?

Something that has been around as long who would know?

Scripture is just another example of ancient human writing, nothing more. That such a book claims God is eternal carries no weight with me.

But if we're only counting things claimed in religious writing, Jainists believe in an eternal universe.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Scripture is just another example of ancient human writing, nothing more. That such a book claims God is eternal carries no weight with me.

But if we're only counting things claimed in religious writing, Jainists believe in an eternal universe.

Jainist have witnessed this eternal universe, or just believe in it? An important distinction.