Made in the image of God

@kellyjay said
Jainist have witnessed this eternal universe, or just believe in it? An important distinction.

Your religious writings say God is eternal, while their religious writings say the universe is eternal. They haven't witnessed the eternal universe in the same way you haven't witnessed the eternal God. All you both have is your religious writings, both of equal value. (And both written by men).

Why is the Bible more important than the Agamas? (Rhetorical question).

@kellyjay said
I don’t believe that we are called to know anything for sure, just have faith. If your going to wait until something is confirmed beyond doubt, good luck with that.

I am holding out for reasonably good inductive proof. I don't need to be 100% sure.

I am also fine with never knowing how the Universe got started. That is a huge, difficult question, and it is not reasonable of me to expect a solution anytime soon.

Life goes on, either way.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Your religious writings say God is eternal, while their religious writings say the universe is eternal. They haven't witnessed the eternal universe in the same way you haven't witnessed the eternal God. All you both have is your religious writings, both of equal value. (And both written by men).

Why is the Bible more important than the Agamas? (Rhetorical question).

I have to be honest with you I have no clue about their beliefs or writings. I'm sure something about their writing sets it apart from all others like the OT and the NT testament has going for them as in the large numbers of authors of the text, the different times all of the books were compiled, all of the history surrounding text.

What is it about their writings that you think puts it on par with the OT and the NT, their predictions about something going to happen hundreds of years before the event and it taking place? Divine intervention sets their writing apart and makes them at least equal to the books of the Bible. I'm not trying to trap you. I do not know these writings.

Is it the philosophy that you find appealing? Something must attract you to dismiss what usually is your go-to, science.

@bigdogg said
I am holding out for reasonably good inductive proof. I don't need to be 100% sure.

I am also fine with never knowing how the Universe got started. That is a huge, difficult question, and it is not reasonable of me to expect a solution anytime soon.

Life goes on, either way.

Check out the link I started on evidence; I was thinking about you when I was looking for it.

@kellyjay said
I have to be honest with you I have no clue about their beliefs or writings. I'm sure something about their writing sets it apart from all others like the OT and the NT testament has going for them as in the large numbers of authors of the text, the different times all of the books were compiled, all of the history surrounding text.

What is it about their writings that yo ...[text shortened]... that you find appealing? Something must attract you to dismiss what usually is your go-to, science.

You're missing the point Kelly. You believe God is eternal because your religious book tells you so. They believe the universe is eternal because their religious book tells them so. There's no more to it than that. The Bible has no greater truth claim, just because it happens to be your religious book.

I reject both religions. It just so happens that my belief in an eternal universe is paralleled in Jainism.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
You're missing the point Kelly. You believe God is eternal because your religious book tells you so. They believe the universe is eternal because their religious book tells them so. There's no more to it than that. The Bible has no greater truth claim, just because it happens to be your religious book.

I reject both religions. It just so happens that my belief in an eternal universe is paralleled in Jainism.

Do you accept a notion without a cause, then? That part of Jainism lines up with you; however, not the whole of it. That allows you to say others agree with you is your reasoning, but you reject everything else about them? You believe the universe is eternal despite science saying it has a beginning. Why bring Jainism up if you reject the belief system? It adds nothing to your belief whatsoever, and I thought you were speaking about a cause why you believed; you were merely stating you are not alone. It was a bit confusing seeing you do that to me anyway.

@kellyjay said
Do you accept a notion without a cause, then? That part of Jainism lines up with you; however, not the whole of it. That allows you to say others agree with you is your reasoning, but you reject everything else about them? You believe the universe is eternal despite science saying it has a beginning. Why bring Jainism up if you reject the belief system? It adds nothing to yo ...[text shortened]... ; you were merely stating you are not alone. It was a bit confusing seeing you do that to me anyway.

Jainism was brought up to counter the Christian 'God is eternal because it says so in scripture' rift. Their scripture says the universe is eternal and is a no less valid truth claim, irrespective of whether you personally agree or not.

And once again, there is no 'cause' in an eternal universe. It has always existed. In the same way you believe your God has no cause. Why are you not understanding this?

And yes, some scientists believe the universe started with the big bang, while others that there have been and endless series of big bangs and big crunches, the universe eternally expanding and shrinking.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Jainism was brought up to counter the Christian 'God is eternal because it says so in scripture' rift. Their scripture says the universe is eternal and is a no less valid truth claim, irrespective of whether you personally agree or not.

And once again, there is no 'cause' in an eternal universe. It has always existed. In the same way you believe your God has no cau ...[text shortened]... en and endless series of big bangs and big crunches, the universe eternally expanding and shrinking.

So the no cause universe is magical?

@kellyjay said
So the no cause universe is magical?

No.

(Just impossible for finite minds to contemplate).

@ghost-of-a-duke said
No.

(Just impossible for finite minds to contemplate).

What is the difference?

@kellyjay said
What is the difference?

The finite struggles to understand the infinite, whether that be an eternal deity or an eternal universe. Time is a human construction. Everything we know has a start and an end. But this absolutely does not mean the universe is magical. It simply doesn't have a beginning.

It is this propensity to attribute unknown things to magic that leads man down the religion rabbit hole.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
The finite struggles to understand the infinite, whether that be an eternal deity or an eternal universe. Time is a human construction. Everything we know has a start and an end. But this absolutely does not mean the universe is magical. It simply doesn't have a beginning.

It is this propensity to attribute unknown things to magic that leads man down the religion rabbit hole.

That is a distinction without a difference.

@kellyjay said
That is a distinction without a difference.

Okay Kelly. Nice chat.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Okay Kelly. Nice chat.

Not really you bring up a religion that believes what you do and belittle another possibility because religious beliefs are attached; there is no distinction. One is magical without cause and a going process without a beginning, and the other is God.

@kellyjay said
Not really you bring up a religion that believes what you do and belittle another possibility because religious beliefs are attached; there is no distinction. One is magical without cause and a going process without a beginning, and the other is God.

I think we were having 2 entirely different conversations, which is why I rarely engage with you anymore.

Let's return to that.