Mark of the Beast

@sonship said
Revelation is made known things about Jesus Christ (and other things) "by signs". He is not literally a lamb with wooly fur and a little tail. But "the Lamb" used so many time in this book is a sign pointing to the real Lord Jesus. Ie. " a Lamb standing as having been slain" or "the throne of God and of the Lamb".

God knew, it seems, that so ...[text shortened]... led with signs? No.

Not if you wish the blessing of hearing and keeping the things of this book.

Will your version of Jesus be literally in hell overseeing the billions of non Christians being cast into the lake of fire?

Yes or no?

Revelation is not an easy book. But still we are told to read and enjoy the blessing.

I read it and kept it long before I understood many things. I never regretted this. Sometimes I read varied interpretations of things by varied well meaning servants of God. Still, in spite of differences in interpretation, I STILL was blessed to read and keep the prophecy.

There are those who who will be eager to ridicule Witness Lee, for reasons which are not always clear to me. But Brother Witness Lee helped us very much with Revelation. Here are some of the points that were valuable in getting into this book I learned from Witness Lee.

1.) It is many the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It is not mainly the revelation of dragons, frogs, horns, and earthquakes. The center most important matter is Christ and what it reveals about Him.

2.) There is nothing new in Revelation. To grasp the significance of difficult signs it is helpful to look where such a matter was found BEFORE in the Bible. Nothing is totally NEW in Revelation. So you must understand what was the significance of many things ELSEWHERE previously in the Bible. This as a great help.

3.) Perhaps one of the best helps was Witness Lee's mastery of the structure of Revelation. It has a structure which is anything but a "mad-man's dream." The wisdom of its design and structure reveal a divine mind behind the writing.

We in the local churches and without them owe much to other explorers into this book. Robert Govette, D M Panton, Watchman Nee all preceded Witness Lee in helping Christians to get into this book. We have some people here who will attempt to portray everything I write as only the rehash of Witness Lee. Actually, Lee admitted he himself stood on the shoulders of others who were adept at teaching Revelation.

4.) To get into this book you must have mastery of all the facts of the book.
My experience is that many times people do not understand why a certain thing is explained the way it is simply because they are not sufficiently familiar with the FACTS of the books statements one by one.

I encourage people to read it many times over their lives in order to master all the facts stated in the book. This helps greatly in interpretation.

@sonship said
Revelation is not an easy book. But still we are told to read and enjoy the blessing.

Will your version of Jesus be literally in hell overseeing the billions of non Christians being cast into the lake of fire?

Is it literal or not?

@divegeester said
Will your version of Jesus be literally in hell overseeing the billions of non Christians being cast into the lake of fire?

Yes or no?

We have argued ad nauseum about chapter 14 and chapter 20 and other eternal judgment passages.

Your concept of "in hell overseeing" I do not agree with in that Jesus has nothing else to do but forever enjoy the suffering of the unreconciled lost.

I won't be getting into a repeating points the many different threads in which you and I debated your problems with verses like 20:15 or 14:10,11. I cannot think of anything not already discussed with you about my belief in these utterances.

Such verses indicate to me God is particular in His meeting out judgment.

"For this reason you shall receive greater judgment." (Matt. 23:14)

" . . . you make him twice as much a son of Gehenna as yourselves." (Matt. 23:15)

" Ninevite men will stand up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something more than Jonah is here." (Matt. 12:41)

"The queen of the south will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something more than Solomon is here." (Matt. 12:42)

I am not saying that I fully understand the nature of all of these passages. But they convey to me God is just and knows all the facts. And I expect to be shocked at His wisdom in the last judgment at His infallible justice.

I have written all these thoughts to you before. These and many, many more I discussed. I understand that you remain committed to your viewpoint.

And I asked you questions as well. Some of these I recall you appeared reluctant to answer with the same insistence you demand of me.

@sonship said
We have argued ad nauseum about chapter 14 and chapter 20 and other eternal judgment passages.

It’s a simple question sonship.

Will your version of Jesus be literally in hell let’s call it ‘observing’ the billions of non Christians being cast into the lake of fire?

Is this account in Revelation literal or not?

@sonship said
And I asked you questions as well. Some of these I recall you appeared reluctant to answer with the same insistence you demand of me.

I promise you faithfully that as soon as you give me a yes or no response to my question I will give any type of answer you wish, yes, no or detailed... to any THREE questions you ask me.

One of the things I wrote before was the nature of the scroll of the revelation which is in the hand of God. It is sealed with seven seals. But it is really like a endless scroll. The entire length of it seems to like extend into the unknown eternity.

The contents of the seventh trumpet which is a content of the seven seals, extends to eternity - "forever and ever". I agree with the interpretation that it will take eternity for all the contents of that "document" so to speak, to be unveiled. I allow for some surprises of which now I cannot imagine.

In the unraveling of that scroll in the hand of God way down on pages yet unknown to me, there will probably be great surprises. I don't know now what they will be.

Pathetic isn’t it.

Is it literal that non Christians will be suffering eternally?

Which parts of the book of Revelation are literal and which parts are “signs”?

@divegeester

Same debates with the same person in repeated cycles I do not intend.

I believe some things in the Bible which I may find horrifying.
ie. Rev. 20:15 .

I told you many times I think, the saved are all to be conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son of God, Jesus. What I do not see through His eyes today, I know I will see completely through His eyes and God's eyes in the future.

Not just negative things hard to comprehend I will see through His eyes. Positive things also I will see more clearly through His eyes. The saved are to be conformed to the image of Christ including how they will see God's eternal purpose and righteous judgment.

Jesus said of His Father, He was "Righteous Father" (John 17:25). Your efforts to portray God as otherwise if Revelation 20:15 is true won't move this Christian from believing the Son. He is the "Righteous Father" in all of His ways and in all of His judgments.

And He is mighty merciful as well and pardoning, saving, atoning, redeeming, justifying, and delivering, conforming saved man to the image of Christ.

@divegeester said
Which parts of the book of Revelation are literal and which parts are “signs”?

Reading carefully helps.

No, I am sorry. I don't think the "lake of fire" is a sign of oblivion, annihilation, or non-existence.

No. the Wife and Bride of the Lamb is not a 1500 mile high giant female.
But it is the church. It is the whole body of regenerated human beings from the OT time and the NT time and the kingdom age.
It is a "city" and a "temple" in which God dwells.

You can have another idea about these things if you want to.

@sonship said
We in the local churches and without them owe much to other explorers into this book. Robert Govette, D M Panton, Watchman Nee all preceded Witness Lee in helping Christians to get into this book. We have some people here who will attempt to portray everything I write as only the rehash of Witness Lee. Actually, Lee admitted he himself stood on the shoulders of others who w ...[text shortened]... eir lives in order to master all the facts stated in the book. This helps greatly in interpretation.

Perhaps you first need to master the spelling of Robert's surname. (Not the first time this has been pointed out to you).

@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Thankyou.
Robert Govett (without an ending e people)