Miracles

There seem to me to be 3 ways in which people use the word “miracle”:

(1) An improbable event. (“I can’t believe that tree was right there to brake my fall—it’s a miracle I wasn’t killed.” )

(2) An event that is unexplainable by the current body of knowledge. (“I have no way of explaining why your cancer is in remission...” )

(3) An event that is claimed to actually contravene the known laws of nature—e.g., virgin birth, walking on water, turning water instantaneously into wine...

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It is only this third sort that I am interested in here.

I have no real-world evidence of any such miracles, nor do I know anyone who does, nor am I aware of any that have been tested and confirmed in such a way that there can be no natural explanation. What I do have is book-claims, stories told...*

Sometimes, in such matters, it is claimed that absence of evidence cannot be taken as evidence of absence—to which I generally pose my “orange unicorn in the refrigerator” metaphor.

However, it strikes me that we’re talking about more than absence of evidence here. Hume once said something to the effect that, even if he believed that he himself had witnessed such a miracle, he would have to hold against it the entire body of natural knowledge.

So—is anyone here aware of a supernatural miracle of the third kind in the contemporary world? Or outside book-revelation? Or, if only book-revelation, do you accept similar claims of the book-revelations of other religions? Why or why not?

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* It’s also interesting to me here, that the religions of supernatural theism tend to need a supernatural revelation (religions of the book), since whatever nature reveals is insufficient for their beliefs. Other religions have writings too, but no one claims that the Tao Te Ching, for example, is or contains a supernatural revelation.

Originally posted by vistesd
There seem to me to be 3 ways in which people use the word “miracle”:

(1) An improbable event. (“I can’t believe that tree was right there to brake my fall—it’s a miracle I wasn’t killed.” )

(2) An event that is unexplainable by the current body of knowledge. (“I have no way of explaining why your cancer is in remission...” )

(3) An event that ...[text shortened]... one claims that the Tao Te Ching, for example, is or contains a supernatural revelation.

Originally posted by Jay Joos
My friend was crippled very early in life(6 years old) and was in a wheelchair from that moment on... at 34Years of age we went to see a lay preacher and he placed his hand on her head and said "In the name of Jesus,walk!" and she got up and walked with no aid or wobbling...
Is that not a miracle?... if it isn't please tell me what it is !!!

Originally posted by vistesd
Interesting. Thank you. The question is whether it is a miracle of the third kind.

What was the physiological cause and nature of the crippling? Is she still walking? How long now?

Answers to these questions might help someone with more physiological knowledge than I to address the circumstance.

Let’s see where it goes, and what other offerings we get...

Originally posted by Jay Joos
My friend was crippled very early in life(6 years old) and was in a wheelchair from that moment on... at 34Years of age we went to see a lay preacher and he placed his hand on her head and said "In the name of Jesus,walk!" and she got up and walked with no aid or wobbling...
Is that not a miracle?... if it isn't please tell me what it is !!!

Originally posted by howardgee
Clearly her body had healed itself. The bones must have strengthened over time and the muscles had kept sufficiently developed to move her around.
Unless there was reliable medical evidence charting her progress which showed that this was not the case, there is insufficient evidence for the miracle claim.

Of course, to closed minded people like you, Man Joos, this will never dissuade you from your opinion.

Originally posted by Jay Joos
Were you there !!! i think not...

So you have no right to say what you say... i have cared for her passionatly since the accident happened...nursed her,been a shoulder for her to cry on...stopped her numerous times from killing herself...i have been back and forth to the doctors,hospitals... the doctors were astonished at her recovery as we all were... a ...[text shortened]... urs to the fact that it may well have been a miracle...
My name is Jay Joos...not Man Joos !!!

Originally posted by howardgee
Did the doctors regularly give your sister check ups?

Did she do physiotherapy to develop strength in her legs?

Could she move her legs at all?

Originally posted by Jay Joos
1. Yes

2. At first yes,then slowly stopped as her legs were not strengthening

3. No.

Originally posted by vistesd
Forgive me if any of this is prying—I tend to divulge little of my personal life and experiences on here, and will continue not to do so. So it may be a bit hypocritical of me to ask, and there is no onus on you to answer.

I take it, though, that faith healing was not part of your belief system up until the event? In some religious groups, it might’ve been the first resort rather than the last. For me, I might not have thought of it at all...

Originally posted by howardgee
Did the doctors regularly give your sister check ups?

Did she do physiotherapy to develop strength in her legs?

Could she move her legs at all?

Originally posted by Jay Joos
1. Yes

2. At first yes,then slowly stopped as her legs were not strengthening

3. No.

Originally posted by howardgee
Clearly her body had healed itself. The bones must have strengthened over time and the muscles had kept sufficiently developed to move her around.
Unless there was reliable medical evidence charting her progress which showed that this was not the case, there is insufficient evidence for the miracle claim.

Of course, to closed minded people like you, Man Joos, this will never dissuade you from your opinion.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You remind me of those that wanted to kill Lazarus after Jesus
raised him from the dead, they didn't want people believing in Jesus
so they ignored what they heard, and wanted it squashed no matter
what they had to do.
Kelly

Originally posted by Jay Joos
I thank the Lord everyday for her walking... noone can convince me there is no God...