1. Hmmm . . .
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    04 Apr '07 15:09
    There seem to me to be 3 ways in which people use the word “miracle”:

    (1) An improbable event. (“I can’t believe that tree was right there to brake my fall—it’s a miracle I wasn’t killed.” )

    (2) An event that is unexplainable by the current body of knowledge. (“I have no way of explaining why your cancer is in remission...” )

    (3) An event that is claimed to actually contravene the known laws of nature—e.g., virgin birth, walking on water, turning water instantaneously into wine...

    ______________________________________

    It is only this third sort that I am interested in here.

    I have no real-world evidence of any such miracles, nor do I know anyone who does, nor am I aware of any that have been tested and confirmed in such a way that there can be no natural explanation. What I do have is book-claims, stories told...*

    Sometimes, in such matters, it is claimed that absence of evidence cannot be taken as evidence of absence—to which I generally pose my “orange unicorn in the refrigerator” metaphor.

    However, it strikes me that we’re talking about more than absence of evidence here. Hume once said something to the effect that, even if he believed that he himself had witnessed such a miracle, he would have to hold against it the entire body of natural knowledge.

    So—is anyone here aware of a supernatural miracle of the third kind in the contemporary world? Or outside book-revelation? Or, if only book-revelation, do you accept similar claims of the book-revelations of other religions? Why or why not?

    _____________________________________

    * It’s also interesting to me here, that the religions of supernatural theism tend to need a supernatural revelation (religions of the book), since whatever nature reveals is insufficient for their beliefs. Other religions have writings too, but no one claims that the Tao Te Ching, for example, is or contains a supernatural revelation.
  2. Joined
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    04 Apr '07 15:13
    Originally posted by vistesd
    There seem to me to be 3 ways in which people use the word “miracle”:

    (1) An improbable event. (“I can’t believe that tree was right there to brake my fall—it’s a miracle I wasn’t killed.” )

    (2) An event that is unexplainable by the current body of knowledge. (“I have no way of explaining why your cancer is in remission...” )

    (3) An event that ...[text shortened]... one claims that the Tao Te Ching, for example, is or contains a supernatural revelation.
    My friend was crippled very early in life(6 years old) and was in a wheelchair from that moment on... at 34Years of age we went to see a lay preacher and he placed his hand on her head and said "In the name of Jesus,walk!" and she got up and walked with no aid or wobbling...
    Is that not a miracle?... if it isn't please tell me what it is !!!
  3. Hmmm . . .
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    04 Apr '07 15:23
    Originally posted by Jay Joos
    My friend was crippled very early in life(6 years old) and was in a wheelchair from that moment on... at 34Years of age we went to see a lay preacher and he placed his hand on her head and said "In the name of Jesus,walk!" and she got up and walked with no aid or wobbling...
    Is that not a miracle?... if it isn't please tell me what it is !!!
    Interesting. Thank you. The question is whether it is a miracle of the third kind.

    What was the physiological cause and nature of the crippling? Is she still walking? How long now?

    Answers to these questions might help someone with more physiological knowledge than I to address the circumstance.

    Let’s see where it goes, and what other offerings we get...
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    04 Apr '07 15:37
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Interesting. Thank you. The question is whether it is a miracle of the third kind.

    What was the physiological cause and nature of the crippling? Is she still walking? How long now?

    Answers to these questions might help someone with more physiological knowledge than I to address the circumstance.

    Let’s see where it goes, and what other offerings we get...
    I feel its of the 3rd kind...

    She has been walking now (and still is) for 3 years now and she is a different woman..

    She was run over

    I thank the Lord everyday for her walking... noone can convince me there is no God...

    Indeed i am very interested in your post and look forward to seeing where it goes....thank you for a really interesting post...
  5. Cosmos
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    04 Apr '07 16:03
    Originally posted by Jay Joos
    My friend was crippled very early in life(6 years old) and was in a wheelchair from that moment on... at 34Years of age we went to see a lay preacher and he placed his hand on her head and said "In the name of Jesus,walk!" and she got up and walked with no aid or wobbling...
    Is that not a miracle?... if it isn't please tell me what it is !!!
    Clearly her body had healed itself. The bones must have strengthened over time and the muscles had kept sufficiently developed to move her around.
    Unless there was reliable medical evidence charting her progress which showed that this was not the case, there is insufficient evidence for the miracle claim.

    Of course, to closed minded people like you, Man Joos, this will never dissuade you from your opinion.
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    04 Apr '07 16:12
    Originally posted by howardgee
    Clearly her body had healed itself. The bones must have strengthened over time and the muscles had kept sufficiently developed to move her around.
    Unless there was reliable medical evidence charting her progress which showed that this was not the case, there is insufficient evidence for the miracle claim.

    Of course, to closed minded people like you, Man Joos, this will never dissuade you from your opinion.
    Were you there !!! i think not...

    So you have no right to say what you say... i have cared for her passionatly since the accident happened...nursed her,been a shoulder for her to cry on...stopped her numerous times from killing herself...i have been back and forth to the doctors,hospitals... the doctors were astonished at her recovery as we all were... and then i saw what doctors said would never happen and you comment that that isn't sufficient...that friend was my sister(i didnt want to say she was my sister but now i have)... i have seen all the evidence i need to see to say that was a miracle.
    Dont insult me HowardGee about closed minds when you wont open yours to the fact that it may well have been a miracle...
    My name is Jay Joos...not Man Joos !!!
  7. Cosmos
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    04 Apr '07 16:38
    Originally posted by Jay Joos
    Were you there !!! i think not...

    So you have no right to say what you say... i have cared for her passionatly since the accident happened...nursed her,been a shoulder for her to cry on...stopped her numerous times from killing herself...i have been back and forth to the doctors,hospitals... the doctors were astonished at her recovery as we all were... a ...[text shortened]... urs to the fact that it may well have been a miracle...
    My name is Jay Joos...not Man Joos !!!
    Did the doctors regularly give your sister check ups?

    Did she do physiotherapy to develop strength in her legs?

    Could she move her legs at all?
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    04 Apr '07 16:40
    Originally posted by howardgee
    Did the doctors regularly give your sister check ups?

    Did she do physiotherapy to develop strength in her legs?

    Could she move her legs at all?
    1. Yes

    2. At first yes,then slowly stopped as her legs were not strengthening

    3. No.
  9. Hmmm . . .
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    04 Apr '07 17:00
    Originally posted by Jay Joos
    1. Yes

    2. At first yes,then slowly stopped as her legs were not strengthening

    3. No.
    Forgive me if any of this is prying—I tend to divulge little of my personal life and experiences on here, and will continue not to do so. So it may be a bit hypocritical of me to ask, and there is no onus on you to answer.

    I take it, though, that faith healing was not part of your belief system up until the event? In some religious groups, it might’ve been the first resort rather than the last. For me, I might not have thought of it at all...
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    04 Apr '07 17:04
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Forgive me if any of this is prying—I tend to divulge little of my personal life and experiences on here, and will continue not to do so. So it may be a bit hypocritical of me to ask, and there is no onus on you to answer.

    I take it, though, that faith healing was not part of your belief system up until the event? In some religious groups, it might’ve been the first resort rather than the last. For me, I might not have thought of it at all...
    To be honest with you i just did not think of it... i had become so wound up by events i forgot to listen to God and when i did the answer came...my wife said her grandfather knew a lay preacher and it was worth a go...i agreed and my sister who hated God before... wept afterwards and has been a beacon of light for him ever since....
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    04 Apr '07 18:05
    Originally posted by howardgee
    Did the doctors regularly give your sister check ups?

    Did she do physiotherapy to develop strength in her legs?

    Could she move her legs at all?
    I have stated what i feel on this and now its time to move on and see if anyone else has any input !
  12. Cosmos
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    04 Apr '07 20:44
    Originally posted by Jay Joos
    1. Yes

    2. At first yes,then slowly stopped as her legs were not strengthening

    3. No.
    Truly a miracle then.

    I take it there is some documented evidence of this wonderous occasion - an article in an on-line publication perhaps?
  13. Standard memberKellyJay
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    04 Apr '07 20:51
    Originally posted by howardgee
    Clearly her body had healed itself. The bones must have strengthened over time and the muscles had kept sufficiently developed to move her around.
    Unless there was reliable medical evidence charting her progress which showed that this was not the case, there is insufficient evidence for the miracle claim.

    Of course, to closed minded people like you, Man Joos, this will never dissuade you from your opinion.
    You remind me of those that wanted to kill Lazarus after Jesus
    raised him from the dead, they didn't want people believing in Jesus
    so they ignored what they heard, and wanted it squashed no matter
    what they had to do.
    Kelly
  14. Cosmos
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    04 Apr '07 23:44
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    You remind me of those that wanted to kill Lazarus after Jesus
    raised him from the dead, they didn't want people believing in Jesus
    so they ignored what they heard, and wanted it squashed no matter
    what they had to do.
    Kelly
    You remind me of those children who get scared to go to bed after they have been read a fairy tale about the Bogey man.
  15. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    05 Apr '07 00:01
    Originally posted by Jay Joos
    I thank the Lord everyday for her walking... noone can convince me there is no God...
    And yet he sees fit to kill thousands in Tsunamis and other events of that ilk.

    Personally, I don't believe you. Documented evidence, that's what I need.

    It may well have been a psychological impetus to get up and walk, but I don't believe that your preacher man did any healing.
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