Mystery of the Woman and the Beast of Rev. 17

Originally posted by Conrau K
Or, more plausibly, Revelations is open to such broad interpretation that almost any major historical event can be, post hoc, assumed to be a fulfilment of some supposedly prophetic part of it.

Well Yes and No. Yes that it is so broad that anyone with some knowledge can fit the prophecy to the event after the fact. And definitely NO because there are some very specific events that can only be attached to certain nations or groups .. eg the persecution of Christians, events pertaining to the Jews in their homeland and the return of Christ.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well Yes and No. Yes that it is so broad that anyone with some knowledge can fit the prophecy to the event after the fact. And definitely NO because there are some very specific events that can only be attached to certain nations or groups .. eg the persecution of Christians, events pertaining to the Jews in their homeland and the return of Christ.

Well, even in those specific cases, we might doubt the prophetic integrity of Revelations. It is hardly surprising that Christians suffered persecution. It was an inevitable consequence of their evangelicalism and staunch refusal to engage in secular worship. Revelations was likely written at the beginning of these persecutions anyway. As for the repatriation of Jews, we could just as well answer that Revelations was one of the reasons motivating Christian leaders in the first place. Of course, if Christ really does return, I will happily acknowledge the veracity of Revelations.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Well, even in those specific cases, we might doubt the prophetic integrity of Revelations. It is hardly surprising that Christians suffered persecution. It was an inevitable consequence of their evangelicalism and staunch refusal to engage in secular worship. Revelations was likely written at the beginning of these persecutions anyway. As for the repatriati ...[text shortened]... Of course, if Christ really does return, I will happily acknowledge the veracity of Revelations.

Well you will soon "..happily acknowledge the veracity of Revelations.. 🙂

And I like the line about Christians causing their own persecution. I see once a Catholic always a Catholic.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well you will soon "..happily acknowledge the veracity of Revelations.. 🙂

And I like the line about Christians causing their own persecution. I see once a Catholic always a Catholic.

I don't get it.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I don't get it.

You implied that Christians brought the persecution on themselves. Is that not the implication?

And I know you used to be a Catholic.

she could be the ones who ride the anti god line.. enjoying thier own life ..
probibly with the early church discribing the whore giving that it was also a place of wonderful garden but must of had some dark element distorying itself, this would seem to show that the outside beauty but inside corruptable.
im unshure if it refers to a city, country, more the human weakness

Originally posted by Rajk999
I find it hard to believe that is all literal stuff.

Answer this question: Do you think that most of the prophesies in Revelation have already been fulfiled?

No. Revelation is about end times. Things which must occur before Christ's second coming, during, and after. The end of this age, when Christ returns and begins his millenium reign on earth, and the events leading up to that.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Perhaps we should reflect on the words 'No one knows the hour'.

That's exactly right. It will come "as a thief in the night".

Christians who have wisdom will be ready.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You implied that Christians brought the persecution on themselves. Is that not the implication?

And I know you used to be a Catholic.

I did not say that they 'brought it on themselves'. That would suggest that the early Christians were wholly responsible for their own persecution. Moral responsibility obviously falls exclusively on the Roman Empire. What I did say, however, is that Christian persecution was inevitable. I do not see anything controversial about that. Aggressive evangelicalism which challenged the authority of the empire and denied the religious and ritual practices that were essential to imperial ideology would undoubtedly have been provocative.

And I don't see how Catholicism comes into this.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I did not say that they 'brought it on themselves'. That would suggest that the early Christians were wholly responsible for their own persecution. Moral responsibility obviously falls exclusively on the Roman Empire. What I did say, however, is that Christian persecution was inevitable. I do not see anything controversial about that. Aggressive evangelical ...[text shortened]... would undoubtedly have been provocative.

And I don't see how Catholicism comes into this.

I was referring to Christian persecution by the Roman Catholics.
Was not the Spanish Inquisition which ran for almost 500 years, the method used by Papal authorities to persecute Christians ?

Originally posted by Melanerpes
What if this person is just a friendly guy with some good new ideas for solving various problems?


What if all this Armageddon talk prevents a perfectly good peace treaty from being signed in the Middle East?
What if all this Armageddon talk leads to a lot of good things not getting done?

Is Christianity about preventing good things from being done? Is that what Jesus wants?

1. The AntiChrist will indeed present himself as "a friendly guy with some good new ideas for solving various problems". And people will accept him, and choose him to lead them. Even Christians will be fooled.

2. & 3. "This Armageddon talk" will not prevent a single aspect of this scenario from unfolding. It is written in scripture. It is prophesied. It *will* happen, regardless if some Christians know what is really going on or not. The AntiChrist will enjoy massive, worldwide support, especially at first.

4. No, Christianity is not about preventing any good things from getting done. This scenario *must* take place. It cannot be prevented. But keep in mind, there is very little good here. We're talking about untold billions dying. The only good being done here is near the end, when Christ finally returns.

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." -- Matthew 24:22-23

Originally posted by Rajk999
I was referring to Christian persecution by the Roman Catholics.
Was not the Spanish Inquisition which ran for almost 500 years, the method used by Papal authorities to persecute Christians ?

How am I supposed to know that you were referring to victims of the Spanish Inquisition (which, mind you, primarily concerned Jewish converts to Christianity and was in fact orchestrated by the Spanish monarchy)? Anyway, I said at the outset that I was referring to the early Christians.

Originally posted by Suzianne
1. The AntiChrist will indeed present himself as "a friendly guy with some good new ideas for solving various problems". And people will accept him, and choose him to lead them. Even Christians will be fooled.

2. & 3. "This Armageddon talk" will not prevent a single aspect of this scenario from unfolding. It is written in scripture. It is prophesied. ...[text shortened]... h be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." -- Matthew 24:22-23

Billions dying?

Is that in the Bible ?

Originally posted by Conrau K
Well, even in those specific cases, we might doubt the prophetic integrity of Revelations. It is hardly surprising that Christians suffered persecution. It was an inevitable consequence of their evangelicalism and staunch refusal to engage in secular worship. Revelations was likely written at the beginning of these persecutions anyway. As for the repatriati ...[text shortened]... Of course, if Christ really does return, I will happily acknowledge the veracity of Revelations.

As for the repatriation of the Jews, it was tried at least three times within the last thousand years. It failed each time because the associated prophecies were not ready to be fulfilled. And of course Revelation motivated those of other nations trying to recreate the Jewish homeland. But the time was not yet ripe. So the efforts failed each time, until 1948.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Billions dying?

Is that in the Bible ?

Yes. The passage I quoted in the post you quoted.

The relevant bit is this:
"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." -- Matthew 24:23

"... there should no flesh be saved..." meaning the events are so widespread and massive that it would be capable of killing everyone on the planet. But because the days are shortened, there will be some humans left alive to witness the very end of days, including Christ's return.