Mystery of the Woman and the Beast of Rev. 17

In the thread on the Vatican, I was asked why is the Woman called Babylon.
I gave him a modern interpretation of what Babylon is believed to refer to.
That is, "Babylon in the Book of Revelation refers to the institution of
multinational corporations that are more powerful than any individual
secular government. The whore rides the beast and controls it in some
way, but it is not loyal to the truth of God and its loyality and services
can be bought for a price."

I don't think this is a adequate answer, but I did not get any comments
about it. Perhaps no one really paid attention to it. I know jaywill has
studied Revelation and is probably aware that the general interpretation
among Protestant Churches, until the reconciliation with the Roman
Catholic Church, had been that the woman was the city of Rome with
the Vatican that sets on seven hills.

Babylon is a city that resulted after God confused the languages due to
the tower of Babal. But God eventually destroyed Babylon and it is still
in ruins today. So this city in revelation called Babylon must be a code
word for a city like Babylon that has influence over religion, politics, and
commerce on a multi-language or multi-national scale. In other words,
worldwide. Since it is also called "The Mother of Harlots" it seems to fit
the description of the Vatican and the Roman Catholic Church, which
departed from the true worship of God that brought forth the Protestant
daughter churches as well as many other churches coming out of the
original Protestant churches.

I welcome any comments, additions, and criticisms that will shed more
light on the identity of the woman and the Beast of Revelation 17 and 18.

Originally posted by RJHinds
In the thread on the Vatican, I was asked why is the Woman called Babylon.
I gave him a modern interpretation of what Babylon is believed to refer to.
That is, "Babylon in the Book of Revelation refers to the institution of
multinational corporations that are more powerful than any individual
secular government. The whore rides the beast and controls it ...[text shortened]... t will shed more
light on the identity of the woman and the Beast of Revelation 17 and 18.

Do MNCs have therefore some mark which 'followers' must have in order to trade etc etc? Somehow MNCs dont fit the bill.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Do MNCs have therefore some mark which 'followers' must have in order to trade etc etc? Somehow MNCs dont fit the bill.

What do you mean by MNCs?

Originally posted by RJHinds
What do you mean by MNCs?

Multinational Corporations.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Multinational Corporations.

Yes, I understand what you are talking about now. I agree, they could
only be part of the commerce part of Babylon, even if they fit in there
at all.

Originally posted by RJHinds
In the thread on the Vatican, I was asked why is the Woman called Babylon.
I gave him a modern interpretation of what Babylon is believed to refer to.
That is, "Babylon in the Book of Revelation refers to the institution of
multinational corporations that are more powerful than any individual
secular government. The whore rides the beast and controls it t will shed more
light on the identity of the woman and the Beast of Revelation 17 and 18.

in the Old Testament, the original Babylon was treated harshly by God because it used its power to exploit and oppress the various nations (most notably Israel) that were under its power. God has made it clear that those who have power are to recognize that their power is a gift from God, and they are to use it to promote the common good, to uphold justice and to protect the "widow and the orphan".

But those who have power tend to do the opposite - they use it to enrich themselves while neglecting the common good - and instead of protecting the weak, they oppress and exploit them. The term Babylon thus refers to ANY institution that greatly abuses its power - whether it be a business, a national government, or a multinational body. In the Old Testament times, "Babylon" notably included Egypt, Assyria, and Babylonia - and especially the leadership of Israel itself.

the message of Revelation speaks to the early Christian church which was facing oppression and persecution from the Roman Empire and its allies -- it draws on how God delivered his people from the clutches of a similarly oppressive Babylon some 500 years before, and reassures the audience that God will deliver his people (the early Christian churches) from "Babylon" once again.

Originally posted by RJHinds
In the thread on the Vatican, I was asked why is the Woman called Babylon.
I gave him a modern interpretation of what Babylon is believed to refer to.
That is, "Babylon in the Book of Revelation refers to the institution of
multinational corporations that are more powerful than any individual
secular government. The whore rides the beast and controls it t will shed more
light on the identity of the woman and the Beast of Revelation 17 and 18.

Even though she is named in Rev. 17, a much more thorough description is given in Rev. 18. Indeed, the whole chapter is who she is, what she's done, how she will end, and why.

I ask everyone to go find a bible and read through Rev. 18 in its entirety, and then come back here and tell me why she, the whore of Babylon, can be any other except the nation of the United States of America.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Even though she is named in Rev. 17, a much more thorough description is given in Rev. 18. Indeed, the whole chapter is who she is, what she's done, how she will end, and why.

I ask everyone to go find a bible and read through Rev. 18 in its entirety, and then come back here and tell me why she, the whore of Babylon, can be any other except the nation of the United States of America.

I think its up to you to prove why it IS the USA, rather than for anyone to prove it IS NOT the USA.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I think its up to you to prove why it IS the USA, rather than for anyone to prove it IS NOT the USA.

It seems obvious to me, reading through it with the concept in mind. Meaning even those who are not Christian should be able to see it. You don't think so? Tell me why.

I'm tired of the word proof. Prove this, prove that. I'm not feeling up to PROVING anything. How can you PROVE anything that is circumstantial and subjective, like anything regarding religion? There's nothing left but opinion. If you have a contrary opinion, let's have a discussion.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I think its up to you to prove why it IS the USA, rather than for anyone to prove it IS NOT the USA.

Perhaps the Roman Empire, perhaps the Holy Roman Empire, perhaps the British Empire, and why it won't be China for a while. It might simply be Worldly Power, which has mobility. For sure this won't be settled on this forum.

Originally posted by RJHinds
In the thread on the Vatican, I was asked why is the Woman called Babylon.
I gave him a modern interpretation of what Babylon is believed to refer to.
That is, "Babylon in the Book of Revelation refers to the institution of
multinational corporations that are more powerful than any individual
secular government. The whore rides the beast and controls it t will shed more
light on the identity of the woman and the Beast of Revelation 17 and 18.

I did pay attention to it, but I did my own research and discovered the answer. Babylon at the time Revelations was written was widely known as an ancient, extinct empire that had persecuted Jews. However, even though the Babylonian Empire was gone, the pagan Romans were persecuting Christians. To write this openly was to invite punishment. Babylon in Revelations 17 refers to pagan Rome.

Because it refers to Rome, many Protestants like to assume it means the Roman Catholic Church, but it does not. The Roman Catholic Church did not yet exist*, and Protestants would not exist for over a thousand years. It refers specifically to pagan Rome (the people who were throwing Christians into the arena so they got eaten by lions). Because it's a common theme for a religious minority to be persecuted by The Man, by extension, Babylon implies whichever pagan or secular imperial power is persecuting the reader.

*Actually I'm not too familiar with how the Roman Catholic Church became Roman. Constantine didn't officially make the Empire Roman until like 300 AD and he left Rome when he did. But the Bishop of Rome (St Peter himself was one of the first martyrs) wasn't the one throwing Christians to the lions, it was the Emporers who worshipped Jupiter and Mars and claimed divinity themselves e.g. Nero, Caligula etc.

Originally posted by Suzianne
It seems obvious to me, reading through it with the concept in mind. Meaning even those who are not Christian should be able to see it. You don't think so? Tell me why.

I'm tired of the word proof. Prove this, prove that. I'm not feeling up to PROVING anything. How can you PROVE anything that is circumstantial and subjective, like anything regardin ...[text shortened]... There's nothing left but opinion. If you have a contrary opinion, let's have a discussion.

At least if you were going to write so much you could have said exactly why you think its the USA and get the discussion going. Here is one of the dominant ideas in this whole scenario. Dominant as its repeated 3 times :


Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

So exactly how does the USA fit the bill as a killer of saints and prophets and I imagine disciples of Christ in general?

Originally posted by Rajk999
At least if you were going to write so much you could have said exactly why you think its the USA and get the discussion going. Here is one of the dominant ideas in this whole scenario. Dominant as its repeated 3 times :


Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw ...[text shortened]... it the bill as a killer of saints and prophets and I imagine disciples of Christ in general?

This is mainly still in the future. (Although those who constantly chirp up and claim that Christianity is directly responsible for more wars and bloodshed than any other religion would agree that the USA has had a hand in much bloodshed already.) During the Tribulation, many Christians will die at the hands of agents of the AntiChrist. A substantial portion of all the Christians in the world are in the US, including many of the "martyrs of Jesus". I'm not sure exactly how "saints and prophets" fits in here, but it doesn't surprise me at all. Perhaps the US will lead the world in executions of those who refuse to take the mark of the beast. This would make some "saints and prophets" (especially if the resistance is outspoken) and definitely "martyrs of Jesus".

By the time the USA falls, presumably through nuclear attack ("Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her." -- Rev. 18:8), most Christians in the US will be dead, at least those who did not take heed and leave ("And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." -- Rev. 18:4).

Originally posted by Suzianne
This is mainly still in the future. (Although those who constantly chirp up and claim that Christianity is directly responsible for more wars and bloodshed than any other religion would agree that the USA has had a hand in much bloodshed already.) During the Tribulation, many Christians will die at the hands of agents of the AntiChrist. A substantial por ...[text shortened]... not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." -- Rev. 18:4).

Whatever jugment will befall this woman and the beast will come in one day but the ongoing activities which let up to the great fall of the woman must have been over many centuries. So the persecution of saints and prophets is an ongoing matter and not some future event.

The USA is not guilty of persecuting any Christians. The closest thing to what was described is the activities of the Roman Catholic church in Europe during the period of the Inquisition. As for bloodshed in wars nothing beats the two world wars caused by Europeans and fought mostly in Europe.

My guess is that all of this centers around Europe. Europeans enjoy among the highest standards of living, have the most atheists and the most depraved lifestyle in the world. In many cities drugs and prostitution are commonplace and sanctioned by law.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Whatever jugment will befall this woman and the beast will come in one day but the ongoing activities which let up to the great fall of the woman must have been over many centuries. So the persecution of saints and prophets is an ongoing matter and not some future event.

The USA is not guilty of persecuting any Christians. The closest thing to what was ...[text shortened]... style in the world. In many cities drugs and prostitution are commonplace and sanctioned by law.

Look at the greed in the US financial sector, the 99%'ers rising up in protest in the Occupy Wall Street movement, the widespread belief that US politicians are nothing more than liars and opportunists, and the obscene amounts of money being made and horded by the top 1% in the US during an economic downturn, along with the extreme poverty of most of the world's billions and tell me again who has the most depraved lifestyle in the world.

This despite the number of Christians in this country.

BTW, I didn't say the US was guilty of persecuting Christians. Not YET, anyway.