Mystery of the Woman and the Beast of Rev. 17

Originally posted by jaywill
Yes. (But I did not yet visit the website. So I cannot express an opinion on that site one way or another now).

The Roman Catholic Church must be the woman in chapter 17. In chapter 18 it is more the city of Rome.

Having said that, it would be too superfiscial to not recognize that the characteristics of this woman are more than organizational. She r ...[text shortened]... thought similar to the Jews being carried away from the Good Land into captivity in Babylon.

This seems the problem I encountered when searching for the true church.
Every church group I came across had a different amont of truth mixed
with different errors. Pagan beliefs seem hard to discard.

Originally posted by RJHinds
This seems the problem I encountered when searching for the true church.
Every church group I came across had a different amont of truth mixed
with different errors. Pagan beliefs seem hard to discard.

This seems the problem I encountered when searching for the true church. Every church group I came across had a different amont of truth mixed
with different errors. Pagan beliefs seem hard to discard.

I would recognize that God would not put a hunger in you for something that does not exist. If there is a seeking for healthy and genuine church experience surely He has one for you.

I would add to my seeking thanksgiving for what God has for you to discover. I think He would honor this because you trust in Him that He is your Father and must feed you as His child. And that feeding must be the healthy experience of the normal church life.

But you must not consider the church to be a utopia. The church in Corinth was a genuine local church. But we surely cannot say she had no problems. The church in Thessalonica was a genuine local church. But her saints were young and needed much shepherding and care. The church in Colossi was a real local church. But there was much need there for healthy ministry to bring the saints away from philosophy.

The churches in Galatia were genuine local churches too. But Paul had to struggle mightly to adjust them from errors. And all the churches in the New Testament had opportunities for Christ to adjust, clarify, strengthen, shepherd, correct.

So in your search for the genuine New Testament church life do not consider that you will find a utopia. But you seek a gathering, though not perfect in maturity, always manages eventually to let the Holy Spirit have the last word.

Such local churches exist.
And I would encourage you to touch Christ the Head of the Body to see if He is leading you to go and see and partake His recovery of the normal church life.

www.localchurches.org

Originally posted by jaywill

This seems the problem I encountered when searching for the true church. Every church group I came across had a different amont of truth mixed
with different errors. Pagan beliefs seem hard to discard.

I would recognize that God would not put a hunger in you for something that does not exist. If there is a seeking for healthy and gen ...[text shortened]... you to go and see and partake His recovery of the normal church life.

www.localchurches.org

If all members of the church had to be mature then they would not allow me in.
I have been looking for a church where the truth about Jesus is taught without
error. I don't require all members to be mature, but I don't want to have to
argue over simple truths either.

Originally posted by RJHinds
If all members of the church had to be mature then they would not allow me in.
I have been looking for a church where the truth about Jesus is taught without
error. I don't require all members to be mature, but I don't want to have to
argue over simple truths either.

If all members of the church had to be mature then they would not allow me in. I have been looking for a church where the truth about Jesus is taught without error. I don't require all members to be mature, but I don't want to have to argue over simple truths either.

I will try to incorporate some of these mutual concerns in my comments on this thread. I will attempt to address these concerns in the discussion about the woman in Rev. 17,18 and the woman in Rev. 21,22.

These two women, the Harlot and the New Jerusalem, are very antithesis to each other. Upon the backround of each we see the other more clearly for they stand at opposite ends.

Originally posted by RJHinds
If all members of the church had to be mature then they would not allow me in.
I have been looking for a church where the truth about Jesus is taught without
error. I don't require all members to be mature, but I don't want to have to
argue over simple truths either.

This book has been a great help to me. It shows what Christians should be special about, what they can afford to be general about, and how to maintain a practical unity in the proper church life.

"The Speciality, Generality, and Practicality of the Church Life" by Witness Lee.

http://www.livingstreambooks.com/servlet/the-899/Speciality%2C-Generality%2C-and-Practicality/Detail


And here too are 66 other publications addressing the longing and need for the proper New Testament assembling.

http://www.livingstreambooks.com/servlet/the-Books-cln-The-Church/searchpath/5105/start/51/total/67/Categories

" And one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, Come here; I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits upon the many waters." (Rev. 17:1)

The judgment of the apostate mother of daughter harlots is the destruction of Roman Catholicism at the hands of Antichrist at the end of the age.

God calls His people to out from that judgment - "And I heard another voice out of heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you do not participate in her sins and that you do not receive her plagues. For her sins have accumulated up to heaven, and God has remembered her unrighteousnesses." (Rev. 18:4,5)

The sins that God remembers the Roman Catholic "Mother" committing include her murder of many genuine Christians. This is indicated by the fact that the woman is drunk with "the blood of the saints".

"And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus." (Rev. 17:6a)

One can consult a book like Foxe's Book of Martyrs to read about the torture and death of Christians by not only the Roman Empire, but even more so by the Roman Catholic Church.

The shed blood of the believers are part of the sins which God remembers that she needs to be judged for. But this judgment of the apostate harlot is carried out by God indirectly through the agency of Antichrist and those governing entities in cooperation with Antichrist. It seems that God does not directly judge the Harlot. But, in His sovereignty allows for the judgment to be carried out by the Antichrist and the governors under him.

The DIRECT judgment is from the Antichrist. The indirect judgment is through God's providence, God's sovereignty. Here is the passage indicating this:

"And the ten horns which you saw and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked and will eat her flesh and burn her utterly with fire.

For God has put it into their hearts to perform His mind and to perform one mind and to give their kingdom to the beast until the words of God are accomplished.

And the woman whom you saw is the great city, which has a kingdom over the kings of the earth." (Rev. 17:16-18)

How has the thought been put into the minds of the kings to destroy the Harlot? "For God has put it into their hearts to perform His mind ..."

The shaping up of the great conglomerate under the Antichrist is allowed by God to be the tool by which the Roman Catholic Church will be destroyed. He calls His people out of her to escape this judgment - "Come out of her, My people".

How much this destruction will touch the daughters and the Protestant divisions which were spawned out from the Mother, I do not know. I would not be surprised that it touches the entire Christiandom.

The hatred you see expressed these days from people like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris are only previews of the hostility of the world powers against Christiandom. They mistakenly think that God does not exist because of the apostate church. They will of course learn that the apostate church does not mean that God and Christ are not real by any stretch of the imagination.

But the kings do turn over their power to the Antichrist beast. And under God's sovereignty the Roman Catholic Church suffers an exposure, a destruction, most likely a looting of her immense wealth which a desparate world will covet.

"And the ten horns which you saw and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked and will eat her flesh and burn her utterly with fire." (Rev. 17:16)

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]" And one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, Come here; I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits upon the many waters." (Rev. 17:1)

The judgment of the apostate mother of daughter harlots is the destruction of Roman Catholicism at the hands of Antichrist at the end of the age.

and will eat her flesh and burn her utterly with fire." (Rev. 17:16) [/b][/b]

I believe someone on this forum once accused me of something like
giving Christianity a bad name by my comments. I don't remember
exactly how it was worded, but it was a plea for me to stop my
comments, I believe. On the other hand most people in the world
associate the Roman Catholic Church with Christianity and then
opponents of Christianity point to what she has done throughout
history in their arguments against Christianity. But she speaks
wonderful words for all to hear, it seems.

P.S. I guess it is the fact that she is in plain sight up there high an
mighty on the beast, seemingly controlling it, that makes them
hate her so much.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I believe someone on this forum once accused me of something like
giving Christianity a bad name by my comments. I don't remember
exactly how it was worded, but it was a plea for me to stop my
comments, I believe. On the other hand most people in the world
associate the Roman Catholic Church with Christianity and then
opponents of Christianity point t ...[text shortened]... here high an
mighty on the beast, seemingly controlling it, that makes them
hate her so much.

The sober view of the revelation, I believe, is more nuanced. When you consider that that Holy Spirit used Babylon as a discreption of this city, this calls for a many faceted comprehension of the symbol.

Negatively, Babylon was a place where God's people in the Old Testament were carried away from the good land of Canaan. On the other hand, positively, a very spiritual person named Daniel received the clearest revelation from God there.

So when we talk about the Babylon, Mother of Harlots, we have to remember that some rather spiritual people might be caught there. They are there in spite of her. We have to can say that there have been some deeply spiritual people in Roman Catholicism just as Daniel was deeply spiritual, held in captivity in Babylon in the OT.

It is a nuanced matter which calls for objectivty and appreciation that the truth has different aspects to it.

While some very spiritual people appeared in the Harlot, in spite of her, she is also said to be responsible for "the abominations of the earth" (17:5)

This should mean that some of the most abominable transgressions to take place on the earth have their source in this Harlot. They are so abominable because they come out of the truth of God mixed with error which is very evil. In the Recovery Version NT the words are capitalized:

"And on her forehead there was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." (Rev. 17:5)

Crimes committed under the supposed banner of the Christian belief are especially "abomina[ble]". And the name of Christ is blasphemed because of some of the sins committed by this religious Babylon.

The fact that she is called "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS" as you know suggests that she is the SOURCE out from which others LIKE herself have come.

On the positive side, within all of the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3, there is a call for some believers to overcome the surrounding problems and degradation. These victors through the grace of Christ are called to rise up to the level of normality in spite of the obstacles and surrounding deficiencies of the church.

The Roman Catholic church, many of us understand, is signified by "the church in Thyatira" (Rev. 2:18-29) . This is the lowest point in the development of the seven churches. This church of Thyatira is even involved in "the deep things of Satan, as they say ..." (2:24)

This is a church involved even in things of the occult and Satanic arts. The Lord says they are the deep things "as they say" because to Him who has eyes as a flame of fire (2:18) nothing is too deep and nothing is hidden.

Nevertheless, even with a church who is involved with Satanic deep things, there is the call for some believers in her to overcome. And they too are promised the reward to reign with Christ in the millennium:

"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My words until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father." (2:26,27)

In spite of Thytira (who symbolically represents Roman Catholicism) having sunken to the rock bottom spiritual condition of all the churches, Jesus does commend something in her:

"I know your works and love and faith and service and your endurance and that your last works are more than the first." (2:19)

So Christ must recognize that some love, faith, service, and endurance worthy of His name has also taken place in this terrible mixture just the same. I am only attempting to show you that taking the revelation in as a whole, there are negative and positive angles to the Roman Catholic Church.

The church in Sardis, which follows Thytira, represents Protestantism. She has begun a recovery back to normality but has not completed it.

"And to the messenger of the church is Sardis write: These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: I know your works, that you have a name that you are living, and yet you are dead.

Become watchful and establish the things which remain, which were about to die; for I have found none of your works completed before My God." (Rev. 3:1,2)

I will not elaborate a lot now. But as Thytira represents Catholicism Sardis represents Protestantism. And she has begun to recover and reestablish some things lost in Catholicism, yet she has not completed the recovery. And her reputation of being spiritually living is below the reality that the Lord seeks - "you have a name that you are living, and yet you are dead." .

Both to Thyatira and to Sardis, as well as to each of the churches, there is a call for some in that situation to hear what the Spirit says to the churches and to overcome through Christ's empowering and supplying grace:

To each of the seven churches is a call to overcome and a promise of some reward for doing so.

Originally posted by jaywill
The sober view of the revelation, I believe, is more nuanced. When you consider that that Holy Spirit used [b]Babylon as a discreption of this city, this calls for a many faceted comprehension of the symbol.

Negatively, Babylon was a place where God's people in the Old Testament were carried away from the good land of Canaan. On the other han ...[text shortened]... hurches is a call to overcome and a promise of some reward for doing so.[/b]

I had looked at the messages to the seven churches of Asia as referring
only to the eastern churches. But you may be right that these messages
have prophetic properties. I am not prepared to agree or disagree with
that at this time.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I had looked at the messages to the seven churches of Asia as referring
only to the eastern churches. But you may be right that these messages
have prophetic properties. I am not prepared to agree or disagree with
that at this time.

" The first thing we must know when coming to read Revelation is what kind of book it is. Everyone knows that it is a book of prophecies, but if we ask whether the seven churches are prophetic, they dare not say. Chapters one through twenty-two show us that the special feature of Revelation is that it is a book of prophecy in nature. Not only are the seven seals, the seven trumpets, and the seven vials prophetic, but even the seven epistles are prophetic. This book is a book of prophecy. That is why no one dares add anything to it, nor is anyone allowed to take anything from it. Since it is a book of prophecy, we must treat it as prophecy and discover the fulfillment of its prophecy. The nature of the book of Revelation, we must note, is firstly prophetic; secondly, since it is prophecy, it will be fulfilled. At that time there were more than seven churches in Asia. Why then did John speak of only these seven? When he was on the isle of Patmos, he saw only these seven churches because these seven represent all the others. God chose seven churches which have characteristics of mutual affinity and put the prophecy on them.

On the earth there are seven churches; in heaven there are only seven lampstands. Here is a problem: Whenever there is a church on the earth, there is a lampstand in heaven. The strange thing is that John saw only seven lampstands in heaven. Are there then only seven churches on the earth? It seems that the church in Chungking has been cut off, and the church in Nanking has also been cut off. What should we do? This is why we must remember that this is prophecy. Since it is prophecy, only seven churches were selected. These seven churches are representative of all other churches; there is no number eight to be represented. There are more than seven churches on earth, but these seven are selected as representatives. There are only seven lampstands in heaven, because the history of the seven churches constitutes the complete history of the church.
" - Watchman Nee



Assume if you can that the seven letters have prophetic aspects. Since I read The Orthodoxy of the Church in the Collected Works of Watchman Nee, I was deeply impressed of the benefit of seeing the prophetic message in the seven letters.


At least I have to say that is how the Holy Spirit has used them in this age of His recovery.

While it is certainly fun to re-write much of what I have learned here in this thread, for the sake of those eager to digest more I would propose they prayerfully read some of this material:

The Orthodoxy of the Church by Watchman Nee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=%22%25Z%5C%20%0A

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]" The first thing we must know when coming to read Revelation is what kind of book it is. Everyone knows that it is a book of prophecies, but if we ask whether the seven churches are prophetic, they dare not say. Chapters one through twenty-two show us that the special feature of Revelation is that it is a book of prophecy in nature. Not only are the seve ...[text shortened]... Church by Watchman Nee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=%22%25Z%5C%20%0A[/b]

I don't think we should assume everything in the book of Revelation is
prophecy. I don't like to ASSUME because it makes an ASS out of U and ME.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I don't think we should assume everything in the book of Revelation is
prophecy. I don't like to ASSUME because it makes an ASS out of U and ME.

I don't think we should assume everything in the book of Revelation is
prophecy. I don't like to ASSUME because it makes an ASS out of U and ME.

Could you please quote me where I said or reported someone said that "everything" in the book of Revelation is prophecy ?

I don't think I said "everything".

Originally posted by jaywill

I don't think we should assume everything in the book of Revelation is
prophecy. I don't like to ASSUME because it makes an ASS out of U and ME.

Could you please quote me where I said or reported someone said that "everything" in the book of Revelation is prophecy ?

I don't think I said "everything".

Okay. Do we then agree that everything in the book of Revelation is
not Prophecy? If so then, we should procede as if the messages to
each of the churches called by name was to that church and that church
only unless there is some statement that says it pertains to a future
event.