Originally posted by Rajk999Christians are persecuted here in the USA on a regular basis, and the persecution is becoming more zealous with each passing day. Now, the persecution does not compare to the physical persecution of select other countries. However, the hate and disgust for Christians is ever increasing in this country and the anti-Christian movement is growing. Rapidly.
The USA is not guilty of persecuting any Christians.
For now, the persecution of Christians in the USA takes the form of media bias and a consorted effort to expunge anything Christian from the public square. What I find very interesting is that the persecutors of Christianity in the USA loathe Israel and the Jews just as much if not more so, but at the same time they are very warm and welcoming to all other religions, primarily Islam. The public school system and college university system in the USA are universally anti-Christian and pro-Islam. It makes no sense because the very people that champion these causes have gay rights and women's rights as part of their agenda and modern-day Muslim society (and its Sharia Law) is FAR more unfriendly to both women and gays than modern-day Christians and Jews.
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Originally posted by sumydidThe American Civil Liberties Union recorded 1,488 attacks on Witnesses in over 300
Christians are persecuted here in the USA on a regular basis, and the persecution is becoming more zealous with each passing day. Now, the persecution does not compare to the physical persecution of select other countries. However, the hate and disgust for Christians is ever increasing in this country and the anti-Christian movement is growing. Rapidly.
Sharia Law) is FAR more unfriendly to both women and gays than modern-day Christians and Jews.
communities between May and October 1940. Angry mobs assaulted Witnesses,
destroyed their property, boycotted their businesses and vandalized their places of
worship. Less than a week after the court decision, a Kingdom Hall in Kennebunk,
Maine was burnt down.
American Legion posts harassed Witnesses nationwide. At Klamath Falls, Oregon,
members of the American Legion harassed Witnesses assembled for worship with
requests to salute the flag and buy war bonds. They then attacked the Witnesses
and besieged the meeting place, breaking windows, throwing in stink bombs,
ammonia and burning kerosene rags. The Witnesses' cars were disabled and many
were overturned. The governor was compelled to call the state militia to disperse
the mob, which reached 1,000 at its peak. In Texas, Witness missionaries were
chased and beaten by vigilantes, and their literature was confiscated or burned.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses_in_the_United_States
Originally posted by sumydidI wonder if you realise how much everything you say is coloured by your own bias.
For now, the persecution of Christians in the USA takes the form of media bias and a consorted effort to expunge anything Christian from the public square. What I find very interesting is that the persecutors of Christianity in the USA loathe Israel and the Jews just as much if not more so, but at the same time they are very warm and welcoming to all other ...[text shortened]... Sharia Law) is FAR more unfriendly to both women and gays than modern-day Christians and Jews.
Maybe it would help if I explain an opposite point of view:
1. Christians are in the majority in the US. To call them 'persecuted' seems laughable to me.
2. The people pushing to have Christianity expunged from the public sphere, are in fact secularists (many of which are Christians) who are not 'persecuting Christians' but rather trying to stop Christians from forcing their religion down other people throats.
3. Most sane people I know loathe Israel, on those who don't do so for religious reasons. We don't necessarily loathe 'the Jews', only those that support Israel and its actions.
4. What you perceive as 'pro-Islam' is probably just people asking you to give Islam a break from the bias you have against it.
As a foreigner, the US seems like a one group of fundamentalist Christian and anti-Muslim people and another group with a bit more sense willing to stand up and speak out against them. What I don't see is any Christian persecution or 'pro Muslim' people as you put it.
Of course the easiest way to judge general sentiment is to look at politics: there are lots of people saying "Obama is Muslim" in the hope of ruining his chances of election, but not one person shouting "Obama is Christian" for the same reasons. Clearly there are more anti-Muslims than anti-Christians.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadYou know very little about the people in the U.S.A. We are a people
I wonder if you realise how much everything you say is coloured by your own bias.
Maybe it would help if I explain an opposite point of view:
1. Christians are in the majority in the US. To call them 'persecuted' seems laughable to me.
2. The people pushing to have Christianity expunged from the public sphere, are in fact secularists (many of which are for the same reasons. Clearly there are more anti-Muslims than anti-Christians.
from all parts of the world. We were orginally dominated by the British
before we broke away from them and therefore the English language
was and has remained the common language. Most people coming
here were looking for better opportunities for a freer life to gain more
happiness. That is why the phrase "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of
Happiness" is in our Declaration of Independence. We call our land
"the land of the free and the home of the brave". The majority of the
people coming here were Christians and wanted to be able to practice
their form of Christianity as they chose. That is the reason for the
freedom of religion so no group would be persecuted because they had
different beliefs and no denomination would be declared the official
religion of the government of the people. Over time as more people
came into this nation who were from religions other than Christianity,
the freedom of religion idea broadened to include all religions. Now it
seems to have turned into "freedom from religion" for many people,
who you call secularists (these are atheists, agnostics - not Christians).
When you add all the Christian denominations and cults, they do still
out number any other religion in this nation. We Christians support the
Nation of Israel because we believe it is the will of God that it exists in
peace and we want to be on the side of God. We believe the Jews are
still His chosen people and has not given up on saving His people. In
contrast, there are some Muslim people who hate God's people, both
Jew and Christian. They want to drive all the Jews out of Israel and into
the sea so they will be destroyed for good. Since it was also Muslim
people who attacked this country for the first time since Japan's attack
of WWII, some that are politically against Obama say he is Muslim.
Most of us no that is ridiculous, but that is a part of politics here, for it
is common for opponents of politicians to accuse them of things that
are not true to turn other people against them. This is called freedom
of speach here. At present I believe you are right that their is more
ant-Muslim feelings because of the murder of all our people in our own
homeland by the Muslims. So we must fight them to defend our people
and our honor. But before this incident, it was the Christians here who
were constantly being sued in court to prevent them from practicing their
religion in public. Even our own government killed many innocent
people just to stop a leader of a cult of Christianity. As long as one
belongs to one of the main religious groups and keeps their religion
within there Church building or out of the public eye, then he can live
in peace most of the time. But I understand Christians and Jews are
not so lucky in Muslum nations.
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Originally posted by sumydidIn the US, there is a strong effort made to ensure that everyone is treated fairly regardless of their faith. This however leads to dilemmas such as this.
Christians are persecuted here in the USA on a regular basis, and the persecution is becoming more zealous with each passing day. Now, the persecution does not compare to the physical persecution of select other countries. However, the hate and disgust for Christians is ever increasing in this country and the anti-Christian movement is growing. Rapidly.
Sharia Law) is FAR more unfriendly to both women and gays than modern-day Christians and Jews.
Consider the following situation. A school is giving a talent show and one of the students wants to sing a song that is clearly Christian. The school's principal is now worried. Someone might file a lawsuit claiming that the school is favoring Christianity over other faiths.
The principal considers his options - one option would be to find someone to sing a Jewish song, and someone to sing a Hindu song etc, so that it would be clear that the school was not discriminating. -- the other and MUCH EASIER option would be to declare that no one be allowed to sing a religious song.
Of course, there's another option -- just allow the one Christian song to be a part of the talent show. There's nothing in the First Amendment that would make it illegal. The problem is that the principal would have to be ready to prove that the school did not in some way actively prevent other faiths from being included in the talent show - even if lawsuits are unfounded, they can be a major hassle. This proof is especially difficult if, like most public schools in the US, the great majority of the students are (at least nominally) Christian.
The annoying thing about these situations is that the principal in question is usually denounced as being "anti-Christian" or "anti-religion" or "someone who is persecuting Christians". In many such cases, the principal himself may actually be a very devout Christian - but merely doesn't believe a talent show is worth the trouble of subjecting his school to a lengthy, ugly legal challenge.
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I dont know what youall describing .. sounds more like everyday life among people.
This is what the Bible calls persecution :
Heb 11:35-38 ... others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Originally posted by Rajk999Yes, this I understand is what happens to Christians in some countries,
I dont know what youall describing .. sounds more like everyday life among people.
This is what the Bible calls persecution :
Heb 11:35-38 ... others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were ...[text shortened]... not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
especially is they are dominated by Islam.
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Originally posted by MelanerpesAlso, depending on what the 'religious' song in question is, it might well be uncomfortable to sit through for the minority who are not of that faith (or any faith).
In the US, there is a strong effort made to ensure that everyone is treated fairly regardless of their faith. This however leads to dilemmas such as this.
Consider the following situation. A school is giving a talent show and one of the students wants to sing a song that is clearly Christian. The school's principal is now worried. Someone might file a ...[text shortened]... show is worth the trouble of subjecting his school to a lengthy, ugly legal challenge.
And it doesn't take much difference to start bullying campaigns that are hugely damaging to kids.
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Originally posted by RJHindsInterestingly historically Muslims treated Christians and Jews in their lands much better than Christians
Yes, this I understand is what happens to Christians in some countries,
especially is they are dominated by Islam.
treated Jews or Muslims in theirs.
Admittedly the treatment wasn't good by today's standards, but then nobody's standards back then were
good by today's standards.
Originally posted by MelanerpesYour example is great, but you left out the Muslim student who wanted to sing a song praising Allah, and the principle welcomes the idea, promotes it, uses a projector to boldly display the lyrics to the song, and then encourages the entire audience to sing along.
In the US, there is a strong effort made to ensure that everyone is treated fairly regardless of their faith. This however leads to dilemmas such as this.
Consider the following situation. A school is giving a talent show and one of the students wants to sing a song that is clearly Christian. The school's principal is now worried. Someone might file a ...[text shortened]... show is worth the trouble of subjecting his school to a lengthy, ugly legal challenge.
Originally posted by RJHinds.That is true. What little I know, I know from tv and news (obviously somewhat biased), and from the few Americans I have met personally or talked to on the internet (my brother-in-law is American). I have never been to America.
You know very little about the people in the U.S.A.
Now it seems to have turned into "freedom from religion" for many people,
who you call secularists (these are atheists, agnostics - not Christians).
I don't know why you interpret it that way. Surely freedom of religion means freedom from having other peoples religion forced on you? When I was in school it was assumed that we were all Christian and we had to learn about Christianity, and there were Christian prayers etc. Luckily I wasn't forced to be Christian and didn't have to pray along, and I recognised the schools right to do what it did as it was a Catholic run school.
Here in SA, at my sons school, when they have functions etc they have a Christian prayer and a Muslim prayer. I see nothing wrong with that.
We believe the Jews are still His chosen people and has not given up on saving His people. In
contrast, there are some Muslim people who hate God's people, both
Jew and Christian. They want to drive all the Jews out of Israel and into
the sea so they will be destroyed for good.
But that is no reason to support their despicable behaviour. I for one do not want Israel destroyed, but nor do I support their racism, apartheid policies and generally bad behaviour. Sumydid seems to interpret that as loathing, and persecution.
At present I believe you are right that their is more
ant-Muslim feelings because of the murder of all our people in our own
homeland by the Muslims.
It wasn't 'by the Muslims'. It was 'by some Muslims'. By basically accusing all Muslims of being involved you are being grossly unfair.
So we must fight them to defend our people and our honor.
By all means, fight those that attacked you, but if you fight the religion and all its members, you are being unfair.
But before this incident, it was the Christians here who
were constantly being sued in court to prevent them from practicing their
religion in public.
When you say 'practising their religion in public', what do you mean? What sort of actions were being argued against?
Originally posted by twhiteheadThe following are cases in which the rights of Christians have been defended by the ACLU. The ACLJ also defends the rights of Christians.
That is true. What little I know, I know from tv and news (obviously somewhat biased), and from the few Americans I have met personally or talked to on the internet (my brother-in-law is American). I have never been to America.
[b]Now it seems to have turned into "freedom from religion" for many people,
who you call secularists (these are atheists, ag ...[text shortened]... igion in public', what do you mean? What sort of actions were being argued against?
The ACLU of Nebraska (2011) opposed a policy at Fremont Public School that would prevent students from wearing Catholic rosaries to school.
http://www.aclunebraska.org/index.php/religious-liberty/127-that-gang-of-nuns-looks-pretty-dangerous
The ACLU of Colorado (2010) supported the rights of students in Colorado Springs School District 11 to wear crosses, rosaries, and other religious symbols. A middle school had announced a policy forbidding students from wearing certain Christian symbols unless they were worn underneath their clothing.
http://aclu-co.org/news/aclu-supports-students-right-of-religious-freedom
The ACLU of Virginia (2011) defended the free religious expression of a group of Christian athletes in Floyd County High School who had copies of the Ten Commandments removed from their personal lockers.
http://www2.wsls.com/news/2011/feb/25/aclu-virginia-defends-floyd-co-high-school-christi-ar-867856/
December 22, 2004: ACLU of New Jersey successfully defends right of religious expression by jurors.
November 20, 2004: ACLU of Nevada supports free speech rights of evangelists to preach on the sidewalks of the strip in Las Vegas.
July 10, 2004: Indiana Civil Liberties Union defends the rights of a Baptist minister to preach his message on public streets.
June 3, 2004: Under pressure from the ACLU of Virginia, officials agree not to prohibit baptisms on public property in Falmouth Waterside Park in Stafford County.
May 11, 2004: After ACLU of Michigan intervened on behalf of a Christian Valedictorian, a public high school agrees to stop censoring religious yearbook entries.
March 25, 2004: ACLU of Washington defends an Evangelical minister's right to preach on sidewalks.
February 21, 2003: ACLU of Massachusetts defends students punished for distributing candy canes with religious messages.
July 11, 2002: ACLU supports right of Iowa students to distribute Christian literature at school.
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Originally posted by RJHindsSo in summary:
The following are cases in which the rights of Christians have been defended by the ACLU. The ACLJ also defends the rights of Christians.
1. Wearing religious symbols at school.
2. Preaching a religion in public place or institution.
Here in SA, and back in Zambia, it has usually been the non-Christians under attack for 1. But in general, when the child or parents have been able to convince the school authorities that it is a genuine religious requirement, then it is usually allowed. Similarly, as a white boy in an mostly black school, I was given some allowance for having different cultural norms from my fellow students.
As we all know, Muslims have been heavily criticized for covering their head or face either in public or at school.
Schools often make rules about dress codes and sometimes they go overboard.
But at the same time students sometimes use religion to try and bypass the dress code. For example, I do not believe that Catholics have any good reason for wearing a rosary at school, and certainly they do not need to display it publicly. Especially if jewelry is not accepted at that school.
Originally posted by twhiteheadHere, covering ones face reminds us of robbers who covered there face during
So in summary:
1. Wearing religious symbols at school.
2. Preaching a religion in public place or institution.
Here in SA, and back in Zambia, it has usually been the non-Christians under attack for 1. But in general, when the child or parents have been able to convince the school authorities that it is a genuine religious requirement, then it is usu ...[text shortened]... y they do not need to display it publicly. Especially if jewelry is not accepted at that school.
a robbery to prevent being found out. Law enforcement officers must be
able to see ones face to make proper identification possible so not to be
suspected of having just committed a crime or something. I do not see
why muslim men and women need to cover their face if they have nothing
to hide.