01 Oct 22
The beginning of life not a unnatural event. If you buy an item that requires that you follow instructions to connect all the parts is anything about that process unnatural?
So following instructions is a natural process, and having things working once constructed properly is also a natural explanation nothing unnatural about that?
What then do we see in life, instructions that guide all processes governing life’s systems. So the code in life which directs the processes from having them repeat correctly with error checking makes more sense to have coder by the design involved.
An unnatural cause would have bind luck, and happenstance caused all of these things to occur with unnatural luck!
@kellyjay saidWhat is your question exactly?
The beginning of life not a unnatural event. If you buy an item that requires that you follow instructions to connect all the parts is anything about that process unnatural?
So following instructions is a natural process, and having things working once constructed properly is also a natural explanation nothing unnatural about that?
What then do we see in life, instruct ...[text shortened]... ause would have bind luck, and happenstance caused all of these things to occur with unnatural luck!
02 Oct 22
@kellyjay saidOh, this old chestnut.
You think life could form naturally when everything in the universe runs counter to
a mindless process doing what would be required, that would be natural to you?
My response to this question is the same as before.
Yes, maybe there is some kind of creator entity that exists that - as your fellow Christian Philokalia stated recently, and you pointedly did not dissent - is unknowable [about the nature of which, therefore, we can only speculate].
But I know full well that, with your talk of "mindlessness" - and other references to parochial human attributes/perspectives and the way you immediately slip into reciting doctrines rooted in ancient Hebrew mythology as soon as you get irritated while pretending all this has nothing whatsoever to do with any of that - yes, I know full well that you seek to anthropomorphize this entity and subjectively project your preferred theology onto it.
So, thank you for your question.
My stance on this, in so far as how it applies to the human condition, human nature, morality and other spiritual topics, I would direct you to my numerous previous elaborations and elucidations of my speculation about a possible creator entity - and leave you to roll out your speculations as you see fit.
02 Oct 22
@fmf saidIt is a simple question, I'm asking if it is natural for an unguided process, driven
Oh, this old chestnut.
My response to this question is the same as before.
Yes, maybe there is some kind of creator entity that exists that - as your fellow Christian Philokalia stated recently, and you pointedly did not dissent - is unknowable [about the nature of which, therefore, we can only speculate].
But I know full well that, with your talk of "mindlessn ...[text shortened]... lation about a possible creator entity - and leave you to roll out your speculations as you see fit.
mindlessly, with no rules for success or failure put together something as functionally
complex as life, a natural thing in your eyes?
02 Oct 22
@kellyjay saidI have given you my response. I hope you bothered to read it and that you don't now start pretending that you haven't. Maybe there is some kind of unknowable creator entity that exists. I will leave you to roll out your speculation about the nature of such an entity as you see fit.
It is a simple question, I'm asking if it is natural for an unguided process, driven
mindlessly, with no rules for success or failure put together something as functionally
complex as life, a natural thing in your eyes?
02 Oct 22
@kellyjay saidYou think God, a mind, and also a living being in his own right, created life, but you cannot explain where he came from.
It is a simple question, I'm asking if it is natural for an unguided process, driven
mindlessly, with no rules for success or failure put together something as functionally
complex as life, a natural thing in your eyes?
So really, you don't have a better answer than the naturalist. You've just kicked the can down the road a bit.
The question of origins currently has no good answer.
@bigdogg saidI think there possibly is some kind of currently unknown - or even unknowable - creator entity that exists.
The question of origins currently has no good answer.
I think scientific endeavour gets us closer and closer to what the nature of that entity is, assuming there is one because I speculate that the nature of the universe and the nature of that entity could be one and the same.
If science one day reclassifies some "supernatural" things as "natural", then that expansion of human knowledge will arguably bring us closer to the answer to the question of origins.
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@kellyjay saidWhat on Earth are you on about.
The beginning of life not a unnatural event. If you buy an item that requires that you follow instructions to connect all the parts is anything about that process unnatural?
So following instructions is a natural process, and having things working once constructed properly is also a natural explanation nothing unnatural about that?
What then do we see in life, instruct ...[text shortened]... ause would have bind luck, and happenstance caused all of these things to occur with unnatural luck!
I think you are confused by the terms “natural” and “unnatural” or you are at least using them incorrectly.
The word you are probably looking for is “supernatural”.
@divegeester saidI thought that, for far-right Christians, "unnatural" is a word applied to homosexuals, interracial marriage, contraception and paedophilia. How about it, KellyJay? What do you reckon?
I think you are confused by the terms “natural” and “unnatural” or you are at least using them incorrectly.
02 Oct 22
@kellyjay saidWhat 'instructions' do you think are being given or received, and by whom? We're not talking about building a cupboard, here, and what is this 'error checking' that you keep on about? Genetic 'information' being passed from one generation to the next is a natural process, and your efforts at double - speak and to defend your already discredited belief in a creator - being sound increasingly desperate.
The beginning of life not a unnatural event. If you buy an item that requires that you follow instructions to connect all the parts is anything about that process unnatural?
So following instructions is a natural process, and having things working once constructed properly is also a natural explanation nothing unnatural about that?
What then do we see in life, instruct ...[text shortened]... ause would have bind luck, and happenstance caused all of these things to occur with unnatural luck!
03 Oct 22
@bigdogg saidI don’t explain what created one who always existed. By definition an eternal one was not created so there is nothing to explain what did create Him, to try would be to create a contradiction by definition.
You think God, a mind, and also a living being in his own right, created life, but you cannot explain where he came from.
So really, you don't have a better answer than the naturalist. You've just kicked the can down the road a bit.
The question of origins currently has no good answer.
03 Oct 22
@indonesia-phil saidIt is a simple question do you think it a natural thing for a unguided mindless goalless process to make a functionally systematic life with error checking? This nature at work or is it unnatural because everything moves to equilibrium by nature?
What 'instructions' do you think are being given or received, and by whom? We're not talking about building a cupboard, here, and what is this 'error checking' that you keep on about? Genetic 'information' being passed from one generation to the next is a natural process, and your efforts at double - speak and to defend your already discredited belief in a creator - being sound increasingly desperate.
You don’t acknowledge life has in it instructions guiding all the functions in it?
03 Oct 22
@kellyjay saidOn the one hand, that's your belief.
I don’t explain what created one who always existed. By definition an eternal one was not created so there is nothing to explain what did create Him, to try would be to create a contradiction by definition.
On the other hand, that's a very convenient way to avoid having to provide an explanation for origins.
To my mind, you have no right to demand an explanation of origins from others, since you have no explanation for the most major factor in your own origin theory.
03 Oct 22
@bigdogg saidThere is no, on the one hand, you don't create someone who always was by
On the one hand, that's your belief.
On the other hand, that's a very convenient way to avoid having to provide an explanation for origins.
To my mind, you have no right to demand an explanation of origins from others, since you have no explanation for the most major factor in your own origin theory.
definition He always was, which is eternal. Convenient for argument's sake is
asking for a definition that cannot exist because of the contradiction it would
create, in saying this uncreated one is created. You want to turn what you
asking for to be something other than what He is, instead of taking on the
definition of eternal.