Naturally bad

Originally posted by josephw
You say you don't believe in revenge, but don't you think your post is a form of revenge?

I think you have misjudged PinkFloyd. I think he is using restraint.

It is not. It is a genuine desire to psychoanalyse and debate.

If you read my post fully, you'll see that after demonstrating what his self-characterisation paints him as, I denounce that, and say that, in my opinion, he's actually a nice guy, but is trying to paint atheists in a bad light.

Originally posted by brobluto
No, you just used the story to gain self-gratification of being an "unsung hero", which is a bit arrogant now that you're "singing" it yourself.

I don't think he is. I think he's merely using it as a tool to demonstare that secular humanist morals are no worse than theistic morals.

I suspect you would have no problems were the protagonist a theist.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Ah, so it was just hyperbole then.

And, of course, we do not live in a society without social repercussions - thanks to evolution.

Shouldn't that be "thanks to the hand of chance"?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Shouldn't that be "thanks to the hand of chance"?

Nope.

If you had said "probability" instead you would be closer.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Nope.

If you had said "probability" instead you would be closer.

The probability of an event is the chance that it will happen ...

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Shouldn't that be "thanks to the hand of chance"?

Why? It is evolution that gives rise to societal behavior not chance.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
The probability of an event is the chance that it will happen ...

And yet some things are more likely to happen than others (although there is always some stochasticity in the system). Natural selection is not a random process, as the word "chance" implies.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
And yet some things are more likely to happen than others (although there is always some stochasticity in the system). Natural selection is not a random process, as the word "chance" implies.

You make it sound like it unrolls according to some providential blueprint.

You've got a one in six chance of rolling a six. That isn't random. Can you find pure randomness anywhere?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Why? It is evolution that gives rise to societal behavior not chance.

And what gave rise to evolution? Why does probability function at all?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
You make it sound like it unrolls according to some providential blueprint.

You've got a one in six chance of rolling a six. That isn't random. Can you find pure randomness anywhere?

I don't see how my statements suggest that in the slightest.

On the other hand, your statements make it sound like it is a completely random process, which it most definitely is not.

[edit; you don't have a one in six chance of rolling a six if the die has an "adaptation" which makes the number six face heavier than the others. In a competition to roll sixes, that die would [probably] win over another without the adaptation. [there is a very small chance it would happen in the opposite direction, although whilst possible, it is vanishingly small]]

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I don't see how my statements suggest that in the slightest.

On the other hand, your statements make it sound like it is a completely random process, which it most definitely is not.

[edit; you don't have a one in six chance of rolling a six if the die has an "adaptation" which makes the number six face heavier than the others. In a competition ...[text shortened]... would happen in the opposite direction, although whilst possible, it is vanishingly small]]

I would have used the word 'random' if I meant 'random'. I don't take 'chance' to be synonymous with 'randomness'.

Anyhow. What was the probability of the universe coming into existence? And why do the forces of variation, competition and inheritance exist? What I'm getting at is that it seems the fact that evolution works the way it does is a chance operation -- unless evolution can be traced back to some other source, and so on ad infinitum.

What I initially picked up on, by the way, was your cute phrase "thanks to evolution". "Look at all this great stuff I got -- thanks to evolution!" "Ain't our son great, honey -- thanks to evolution!" You could so easily form a religion around it.

Is modeling cultural evolution such a cut-and--dried affair in terms of evolution by natural selection, or does it actually present a few problems?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
And what gave rise to evolution?

I am not sure what you mean? Evolution is a process. It takes place when conditions are right. If you are talking about the evolution of life as a whole then I suppose biogenesis gave rise to it though I am not really happy with the whole 'gave rise to' phrase in that context.

Why does probability function at all?
What do you mean by 'function'? Probability is mathematics. Why does addition function? Do you want a course in probability? Or are you saying God invented maths?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am not sure what you mean? Evolution is a process. It takes place when conditions are right. If you are talking about the evolution of life as a whole then I suppose biogenesis gave rise to it though I am not really happy with the whole 'gave rise to' phrase in that context.

'It takes place when conditions are right'. What conditions these conditions?

It would be nice to know where maths 'comes from'.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Anyhow. What was the probability of the universe coming into existence?

That is a terrible question. There are so many flaws in it. For a start, one should ask 'did the universe come into existence'. Secondly, probability when used in the real world is nothing more than a measure of other supposedly known probabilities ie certain assumptions are required. So any answer to your question is based on assumptions.

And why do the forces of variation, competition and inheritance exist?
The mechanism is an outcome of logic. Are you asking where logic comes from? Or are you asking why the conditions are right for the mechanism to act?

What I'm getting at is that it seems the fact that evolution works the way it does is a chance operation -- unless evolution can be traced back to some other source, and so on ad infinitum.
So is everything. But that does not make it wrong to say "I understand some science thanks to my good education". You are trying to render such a claim meaningless by saying that since everything is ultimately based on some unknown origin of the universe we cannot 'thank' anything for anything. The flaw is that you do not understand the whole concept of cause and effect.

Originally posted by twhitehead
That is a terrible question. There are so many flaws in it. For a start, one should ask 'did the universe come into existence'. Secondly, probability when used in the real world is nothing more than a measure of other supposedly known probabilities ie certain assumptions are required. So any answer to your question is based on assumptions.

And why d r anything. The flaw is that you do not understand the whole concept of cause and effect.

You understand some science thanks in part to your education, but clearly that was not the sole determining factor, unless you want to stretch 'education' to encompass the entire constellation of social, cultural, biological & other influences determining your path to becoming twhitehead. Perhaps your will to learn was more important than anything else? Similarly, it's questionable whether it's correct to say 'evolution is the cause of culture' ('thanks to evolution'😉. Because other factors in addition to variation, competition and inheritance seem to be involved. Assigning 'evolution' (as opposed to the theory of evolution -- which has caused many things to change!) sole responsibility for cultural development is hopelessly reductionist, I think. Reductionism being a Deadly Sin.

Did the universe come into existence?