Of what worth is your God?

@thinkofone said
No matter how you try to frame it, unless your position is that everyone is given grace, the fact remains that ultimately it's "grace" with a condition.

If it were truly grace without merit, there wouldn't be any conditions.

Even with the rhetoric you've used here, "faith" is a requirement that must be met. Therefore there is a condition that makes an individual "wo ...[text shortened]...
1. the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward.

Everyone has been given grace yes, it is open to all, but not all want it. It has to be accepted. Jesus made that possible, then it comes to walking with the Lord, not everyone wants to do that either. We are saved by grace through faith no matter how you choose to deny that.

He makes us worthy to walk with God taking care of our sins, He restores our ability to come to the almighty. The way has been made, the veil has been ripped from top to bottom at Jesus dying. He forgives us and after that we are given God's Spirit and our walk with God begins. There it is, the obey, but we are not talking about getting right just obeying because we have already been made right.

In this transaction God gets the glory for our salvation not us, He earned it for us.

@philokalia said
Yeah, it is really interesting.

In this regard, I find theology to be really interesting because it is to philosophy as poetry is to prose... It's like, a wide range of ideas that must be interestingly constricted to the metaphysics & cosmology already provided by a religious text, and the amount of interpretations that can exist is pretty limitless.

You can also f ...[text shortened]... eople just aren't always dealing with the same questions, right.

Diversity is the fruit of life.

One issue is that the Bible is widely open to interpretation and littered with with inconsistencies, discrepancies and outright contradictions.

Another interesting thing to consider is that throughout history there have been widely divergent views amongst those who believe that they have received the "Holy Spirit". Either not everyone who believes they have received the "Holy Spirit" actually has OR it is highly ineffectual.

@kellyjay said
Everyone has been given grace yes, it is open to all, but not all want it. It has to be accepted. Jesus made that possible, then it comes to walking with the Lord, not everyone wants to do that either. We are saved by grace through faith no matter how you choose to deny that.

He makes us worthy to walk with God taking care of our sins, He restores our ability to come to ...[text shortened]... made right.

In this transaction God gets the glory for our salvation not us, He earned it for us.

Everyone has been given grace yes, it is open to all, but not all want it. It has to be accepted.

Obviously you haven't thought this through.

The fact that it has to "be accepted" also makes it conditional - just as "faith" being a requirement makes it conditional.

No matter how much you try to reframe it, your position is incoherent.

@thinkofone said
Everyone has been given grace yes, it is open to all, but not all want it. It has to be accepted.

Obviously you haven't thought this through.

The fact that it has to "be accepted" also makes it conditional - just as "faith" being a requirement makes it conditional.

No matter how much you try to reframe it, your position is incoherent.

A gift isn't earned it is given.
Something earned means you must be able to do or give something of value to acquire it, failing that it is beyond your reach. I suggest you ponder that for awhile if you actually plan on receiving God's salvation. Attempting to tell God He owes you for some reason, you will come up short.

@thinkofone said
One issue is that the Bible is widely open to interpretation and littered with with inconsistencies, discrepancies and outright contradictions.

Another interesting thing to consider is that throughout history there have been widely divergent views amongst those who believe that they have received the "Holy Spirit". Either not everyone who believes they have received the "Holy Spirit" actually has OR it is highly ineffectual.

The fact people can litter the text with their inconsistencies doesn't mean that the scripture is inconsistent, and the same is true with contradictions failing to understand the true meanings in scripture leads many to not see what is there in the light of the truth of the gospel.

@kellyjay said
A gift isn't earned it is given.
Something earned means you must be able to do or give something of value to acquire it, failing that it is beyond your reach. I suggest you ponder that for awhile if you actually plan on receiving God's salvation. Attempting to tell God He owes you for some reason, you will come up short.

If the "gift" were truly free, then everyone would be granted "eternal life" / "salvation" / life in the "Kingdom". They aren't. It's conditional.

No matter how much you try to reframe it, your position is incoherent.

Obviously you haven't thought this through.

@kellyjay said
A gift isn't earned it is given.
Something earned means you must be able to do or give something of value to acquire it, failing that it is beyond your reach. I suggest you ponder that for awhile if you actually plan on receiving God's salvation. Attempting to tell God He owes you for some reason, you will come up short.

When I was young my grandmother would often gift me sweets, but would only do so if I had been good and behaved myself. (Which wasn't often).

Sometimes gifts are earned and only given to the deserving. If a God truly exists who values love and kindness to each other then it is more likely that a divine gift of salvation is given to those who have earned it through good works.

@thinkofone said
If the "gift" were truly free, then everyone would be granted "eternal life" / "salvation" / life in the "Kingdom". They aren't. It's conditional.

No matter how much you try to reframe it, your position is incoherent.

Obviously you haven't thought this through.

If we meet and you offer me a gift that I refuse I walk away without it.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
When I was young my grandmother would often gift me sweets, but would only do so if I had been good and behaved myself. (Which wasn't often).

Sometimes gifts are earned and only given to the deserving. If a God truly exists who values love and kindness to each other then it is more likely that a divine gift of salvation is given to those who have earned it through good works.

So it was a bribe for your good behavior something you could do for something she offered. The truth about God’s grace is we are dead in our sins there is nothing we can do to change that! Dead people can’t clean up their acts, all they can do is rot.

This is why on God’s behalf Jesus came to save us from our sins, without Him we were totally lost. He lived a sinless life and rose from the dead defeating everything between us and God. All that is required is in Jesus Christ not ourselves!

@kellyjay said
So it was a bribe for your good behavior something you could do for something she offered. The truth about God’s grace is we are dead in our sins there is nothing we can do to change that! Dead people can’t clean up their acts, all they can do is rot.

This is why on God’s behalf Jesus came to save us from our sins, without Him we were totally lost. He lived a sinless life ...[text shortened]... dead defeating everything between us and God. All that is required is in Jesus Christ not ourselves!

A reward is not a bribe.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
A reward is not a bribe.

A reward is something earned, a gift is something given that didn’t have to be. A winner of a race can earn a reward by winning a race, than that would be earned.

One who gives mercy can be asked but not compelled! Our salvation isn’t due to us, we were in no position to compel God for it, it was because He first loved us can we rest in.

@ThinkOfOne

If the "gift" were truly free, then everyone would be granted "eternal life" / "salvation" / life in the "Kingdom". They aren't. It's conditional.

Are you saying that if I take three big guys and we grab your arms and I physically force you embrace some package I have for you, that is me giving you a "gift" ?

If you protest - " I DON"T WANT IT !! " then you have received my "gift" ?

@kellyjay said
If we meet and you offer me a gift that I refuse I walk away without it.

The fact is that "eternal life" / "salvation" / life in the "Kingdom" are hardly "gifts" that can be refused if God were to grant them.

The fact is that according to the dogma that you've been taught not everyone is granted "eternal life" / "salvation" / life in the "Kingdom". It's conditional.

Well, you've already tried to spin this quite a few ways and none of them hold up under the light of truth.

No matter how much you try to reframe it, your position is incoherent.

Obviously you haven't thought this through. I don't expect that you ever will. You have too much invested in the self-serving dogma that you've been taught.

@sonship said
@ThinkOfOne

If the "gift" were truly free, then everyone would be granted "eternal life" / "salvation" / life in the "Kingdom". They aren't. It's conditional.

Are you saying that if I take three big guys and we grab your arms and I physically force you embrace some package I have for you, that is me giving you a "gift" ?

If you protest - " I DON"T WANT IT !! " then you have received my "gift" ?

See my post to KJ.

@thinkofone said
The fact is that "eternal life" / "salvation" / life in the "Kingdom" are hardly "gifts" that can be refused if God were to grant them.

The fact is that according to the dogma that you've been taught not everyone is granted "eternal life" / "salvation" / life in the "Kingdom". It's conditional.

Well, you've already tried to spin this quite a few ways and none of t ...[text shortened]... ct that you ever will. You have too much invested in the self-serving dogma that you've been taught.

People refuse God’s gifts all the time as they are completely unthankful for His many blessings. If you refuse to take what is offered you don’t have it.