1. R
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    06 Dec '17 01:541 edit
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    When you read about Jesus personally overseeing the eternal flesh-melting torture in hell, what do you think and feel sonship?

    Remember he is absolutely sovereign, he is absolutely eternally merciful, he is the firstborn, he is God the creator. It’s all his plan.

    Feels fair and equitable does it?
    Right now I am thinking how you will avoid dealing with the issue of this post.

    Do you think by giving me the big evasive "SHHHH!" the passages will go away?

    So produce then textural evidence that Psalm 136 is authentic but Deuteronomy 7:19; 13:8; 19:21; 25:12 were shoe horned in latter by mean people.

    Can't do it, can you?
    Well, opt for deflecting instead.
    Work on your pity evoking special effects harder.


    I was thinking in what form your deflecting, ignoring and evasion would continue of the issue that both the "kindness and severity of God" are revealed in the Bible.
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    06 Dec '17 06:59
    Originally posted by @sonship
    I was thinking in what form your deflecting, ignoring and evasion would continue of the issue that both the "kindness and severity of God" are revealed in the Bible.
    What “deflecting, ignoring and evasion” are you on about? I address this issue with you head on almost every week of the year.

    It is YOU who make these claims and teachings based on YOUR interpretation of certain scriptures. I disagree with YOU head on, all the time. I’m telling you that your version of Jesus through your interpretation of hell and suffering, makes no sense to anyone.

    Telling me I’m evading you is pathetic.
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    06 Dec '17 06:59
    Originally posted by @galveston75
    Romans 11:33
    33 "O the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments are and beyond tracing out his ways are!"

    "Read your bible."

    https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/draw-close/wisdom/divine-wisdom-jehovah-god/#?insight[search_id]=be9f5f1a-80c8-4050-8faa-fa9cb73115a5&insight[search_result_index]=6
    Back again then...?
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    06 Dec '17 10:02
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    Ok now we are talking properly. Thank you.

    I have been brought up, from a Christian perspective, to accept the absolute infalibiity of the Bible, and I understand why I was educated that way. But, I don’t accept that teaching face value, just because I was taught it. I simply don’t and if I’m wrong then I’ll take it up with the Lord when we meet, b ...[text shortened]... sense to me.

    Tell me why me or anyone should accept the absolute infallibility of the bible?
    If you do not assume that the Bible is infallible, how do you decide which parts to believe and which parts to ignore?
  5. Standard memberBigDogg
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    06 Dec '17 16:56
    Originally posted by @dj2becker
    If you assume that God is perfect at everything He does, it means the logical conclusion of that assumption would be that His judgement is also perfect.
    But why should we assume that? Imperfection is far more likely.
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    06 Dec '17 19:47
    Originally posted by @bigdoggproblem
    But why should we assume that? Imperfection is far more likely.
    If you claim to be a Christian and believe what the Bible says about God I’m guessing it’s an assumption you can make.
  7. Standard memberBigDogg
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    06 Dec '17 20:05
    Originally posted by @dj2becker
    If you claim to be a Christian and believe what the Bible says about God I’m guessing it’s an assumption you can make.
    I am not a Christian, but even if I became one, I'd still have issues with infallibility claims.
  8. Standard memberBigDogg
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    06 Dec '17 20:08
    Originally posted by @dj2becker
    If you do not assume that the Bible is infallible, how do you decide which parts to believe and which parts to ignore?
    Use your judgment. (You will inevitably use it anyway.)
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    06 Dec '17 21:49
    Originally posted by @dj2becker
    If you do not assume that the Bible is infallible, how do you decide which parts to believe and which parts to ignore?
    With great difficulty.
    But the difference between you and I is, as you say, I don’t assume.
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    06 Dec '17 21:50
    Originally posted by @bigdoggproblem
    Use your judgment. (You will inevitably use it anyway.)
    Amen
  11. R
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    07 Dec '17 06:138 edits
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    What “deflecting, ignoring and evasion” are you on about? I address this issue with you head on almost every week of the year.


    Then where is the evidence that you, with Paul, acknowledge BOTH the kindness AND ... severity?

    Where is your recognition that Psalm 136 and Deuteronomy are about God's kindness and severity?

    I don't for a second count you as addressing these issues ever and not every week.


    It is YOU who make these claims and teachings based on YOUR interpretation of certain scriptures.


    In many cases there is nothing to interpret.
    There is only the need to accept a quotation.
    You don't at places.

    Requests for better interpretations are met with vivid descriptions as you see them. Vivid descriptions do not offer better interpretations of the words taught.


    I disagree with YOU head on,


    I don't mind you disagreeing with ole me head on.
    I just point out that you disagree with the Bible head on, quite much also.

    Your better interpretation of Revelation 14 is to add vivid details. That's all you have as "better interpretation".


    all the time. I’m telling you that your version of Jesus through your interpretation of hell and suffering, makes no sense to anyone.


    It made sense to Jesus Christ.
    You're opting for denial of this.


    Telling me I’m evading you is pathetic.


    Watch then.

    First Thessalonians says that Christ will reap "vengence" on those who 1.) Do not know God, and 2.) Those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    And what is this "vengence" there. It is "eternal destruction"
    (See 1 Thess. 1:9,10)


    "... the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire, rendering vengence to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey tha gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength."


    What then is your better interpretation of "vengence" rendered with "eternal destruction" ? If you say that this eternal destruction is non-existence of oblivion, I don't count it as a better interpretation.

    Is every one who does not exist then paying the penalty of eternal destruction? By their non-existence, non-being, are they under the vengeance of God ?

    If you answer YES, that makes no sense to me.
    If you answer No, then why should anyone believe that these spoken of above are under the vengeance of God either ?

    If your only answer is to paint more vivid details of how you imagine hell, that's what is pathetic. Every week you may make the same appeal to emotion for the evoking of pity.

    "I don't LIKE it!" is not a better interpretation.
    And "Let me paint the vivid picture to you to repulse you" is not a better interpretation.

    Perhaps you refer to being "kept alive" as your objection with Christ rendering vengeance with eternal destruction.

    There is not enough data in the whole Bible to insist that DEATH has to, and can only mean non-existence. Rather it entails separation from something, in one way or another.

    Try to read through even just the New Testament, substituting the word non-existence everywhere you read death or dead. See if it works for you.
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    07 Dec '17 06:33
    Originally posted by @sonship
    What “deflecting, ignoring and evasion” are you on about? I address this issue with you head on almost every week of the year.


    Then where is the evidence that you, with Paul, acknowledge BOTH the kindness AND ... severity?

    Where is your recognition that Psalm 136 and Deuteronomy are about God's kindness and severity?

    I don't for ...[text shortened]... n-existence[/i]
    everywhere you read death or dead. See if it works for you.[/b]
    You seem upset.
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    07 Dec '17 06:451 edit
    Originally posted by @sonship
    If your only answer is to paint more vivid details of how you imagine hell, that's what is pathetic.
    Will your version of Jesus be spectating the eternal suffering in the hell which he has created?
  14. R
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    07 Dec '17 13:031 edit
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    You seem upset.
    I seem upset. Oh horrors! Let's see how long you can evade the real issues by drawing attention away to my alleged emotional state.

    I don't know if I sound upset or as cool as a cucumber. I do know, however, that substantive better interpretations of the biblical data is not forthcoming from you so far.

    I will look below here and see if you offered any substance yet.
  15. Standard membergalveston75
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    07 Dec '17 13:111 edit
    God did not create a burning hell for humans to be tormented in. This is not what the bible teaches. Not "one" human has ever been tormented in this burning hell, not even Jesus who himself was there for 3 days. Read your bible......

    What is hell?

    https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/what-is-hell/#?insight[search_id]=075c345c-c4f7-40d4-8cd3-d12252e2d73a&insight[search_result_index]=1
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