Panspermia

Originally posted by twhitehead
Well I cannot declare all your evidence null and void as I have not been privy to all of it. But I feel compelled to point out a few things about the evidence you did present:
1. You seem compelled to believe evidence even when it should be obvious to you that it is not valid. One of the points was clearly utter nonsense - ie that crop circles occurring all evidence as it is already clear that at least some of your sources were outright liars.

1.Regarding the comment about crop-circles on different continents there was a bit more to that . Like the rate at which they came up. Also I read one report where there were scientists waiting for a crop-circle to be made , for several nights in a row. Nothing happened and they turned their attention elswhere- only to have one come up right in the spot they were just previously observing.
2. I do have a clue about what 'mutated' means. According to that report the scientists themselves were having trouble explaining exactly how the crops were bent. So you can imagine how hard it is for me, considering I'm not a scientist.
3.How can you say I dont question my beliefs when I just admitted I could be wrong?

I have come across a lot of info/literature regaring ufos/aliens,etc. And yes , I'm sure a lot of it is false. Also their are official debunkers that furthur complicate matters, and apparently a whole bunch of other government agencies that disinform/misinform the public.

Now let me again state that my views on this very troublesome topic stem from some experiences I had. And , in my experience, first-hand direct experience is the surest proof of anything.
I give the bible, for example , some credence but dont just accept everything in it. I mean how can you believe anything?
IMO upto 75% of ALL info that we come across could be false. Would you think that a fair assesment?

Originally posted by Lord Shark
Don't you think the ref would have called the fight off by now?

Yes the ref would,ve called it off a long time ago.I dont think that is the point though. Not for me anyway. I'm not about winning and losing, but about being honest and truthful to everyone.Myself being the first.
Like I said , I saw a ufo once and to this day I cant think of what else it would,ve been. Now feel free to comment as you see fit, or not.

I may not be about winning and losing but that does not mean that I don't like a healthy debate. Your and Twightheads (and others) comments have been most appreciated , and I in no way think you guys are wrong or unfair in you criticisms. For the most part you have raised extremely valid points and , as I think you pointed out earlier, I need to be able to back up my claims. Which I have done poorly, but have tried my best.
Plaes keep in mind that I dont expect anyone to just believe my stuff. Its just a huge part of my life/spirituality that I cant ignore. Even if it is all false. 🙂

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Yes the ref would,ve called it off a long time ago.I dont think that is the point though. Not for me anyway. I'm not about winning and losing, but about being honest and truthful to everyone.Myself being the first.
Like I said , I saw a ufo once and to this day I cant think of what else it would,ve been. Now feel free to comment as you see fit, or not ...[text shortened]... . Its just a huge part of my life/spirituality that I cant ignore. Even if it is all false. 🙂

Jikishi ninshin
😵

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Yes the ref would,ve called it off a long time ago.I dont think that is the point though. Not for me anyway. I'm not about winning and losing, but about being honest and truthful to everyone.Myself being the first.
Like I said , I saw a ufo once and to this day I cant think of what else it would,ve been. Now feel free to comment as you see fit, or not ...[text shortened]... . Its just a huge part of my life/spirituality that I cant ignore. Even if it is all false. 🙂

I agree that it isn't about winning because it isn't like chess. There are seldom formal victory conditions and somebody admitting they are wrong on a MB is quite rare.

For me, I enjoy the debate and the sharing ideas but I am usually aiming at a resolution. Usually this is a suitable 'agree to differ' point, but just rarely, either I or my interlocutor will change their view.

I believe you are sincere and I think you had a very vivid experience which you attribute to a ufo.

There is more I could say about how you assess evidence and interpret your experiences, but i reckon you are clever enough to know my views, and I have no wish to be unkind.

Originally posted by Lord Shark
I agree that it isn't about winning because it isn't like chess. There are seldom formal victory conditions and somebody admitting they are wrong on a MB is quite rare.

For me, I enjoy the debate and the sharing ideas but I am usually aiming at a resolution. Usually this is a suitable 'agree to differ' point, but just rarely, either I or my interlocuto ...[text shortened]... ences, but i reckon you are clever enough to know my views, and I have no wish to be unkind.

Thnx for the compassion. It goes a long way 🙂

Originally posted by karoly aczel
1.Regarding the comment about crop-circles on different continents there was a bit more to that.

But do you admit that the comment was ridiculous? You never seem to admit that evidence is outright wrong, you always try to downplay the counter argument even when it is blatantly obvious that the evidence was wrong, false, lies etc. Its always "well there is more that I am not disclosing" or "it doesn't matter if its false so long as it resonates with the reader".

2. I do have a clue about what 'mutated' means.
I doubt that. I strongly suggest you do some reading on the subject.

According to that report the scientists themselves were having trouble explaining exactly how the crops were bent.
If they used the word mutated they either were not scientists or were not engaging in science at the time (yes some scientist are also con men).

3.How can you say I dont question my beliefs when I just admitted I could be wrong?
Because I don't think you are genuinely questioning your beliefs.

Also their are official debunkers that furthur complicate matters, and apparently a whole bunch of other government agencies that disinform/misinform the public.
Do you have any evidence that anyone official is misinforming/disinforming the public? Why do you believe it?

Now let me again state that my views on this very troublesome topic stem from some experiences I had. And , in my experience, first-hand direct experience is the surest proof of anything.
You already admitted that you had no personal experience whatsoever with crop circles.

I give the bible, for example , some credence but dont just accept everything in it. I mean how can you believe anything?
IMO upto 75% of ALL info that we come across could be false. Would you think that a fair assesment?
A lot of what we think is true could be false, but some of what we think is false, we know is false. Also many things are incoherent (and therefore don't even need to be - and cant be - true or false).

But you seem to give too much credence to stuff that is obviously false.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Like I said , I saw a ufo once and to this day I cant think of what else it would,ve been.

What else, other than what? A UFO is an Unidentified Flying Object. Now either you identified it, it wasn't flying, or it didn't exist, or your identification is correct.
What you probably meant was that you believe it to be an alien space craft - which seems rather odd considering that you simulaneously claim that aliens are 5th dimensional (and presumably wouldn't use 3 dimensional spacecraft).
I could suggest a number of things it could have been, but I don't think you would accept them as you have already made up your mind - based on zero evidence. Or did the ufo you saw have a logo on the side?

Originally posted by twhitehead
But do you admit that the comment was ridiculous? You never seem to admit that evidence is outright wrong, you always try to downplay the counter argument even when it is blatantly obvious that the evidence was wrong, false, lies etc. Its always "well there is more that I am not disclosing" or "it doesn't matter if its false so long as it resonates with t ...[text shortened]... or false).

But you seem to give too much credence to stuff that is obviously false.

"sigh"...point by point.

My comment may have seemed ridiculous. (What comment was that again?) Its obviously not resonating with the reader . ..

2. When I come across more info about these 'mutated' bent over crops, I'll let you know.Some scientists are con men. Yes, obviously the ones I read😛

3.I am genuinely questioning my beliefs!!!! No one has yet offerred me any alternative explanations. I have suggested that I may have mental problems...Geez man ,its just the framework that I'm working with... If you had seen what I had seen how do you know how you would've reacted? You dont. So just lay off man. There are a whole bunch of people on this forum crapping on about some guy from 2000 years ago. At least I'm trying to be to be contemporary.

4.I've read numerous reports about debunkers and disinformers/misinformers. You want me to dig them out?
Why do I believe them? Because it MAY be true...

\5.I've had no personal experience with crop-circles. Yes (again) they could all be fakes.

6.I think we have some of our linguistical wires crossed. I do put in a sincere effort to communicate on the same level, but dont always succeed.

I seem to give credence the TO YOU is obviously false. Clearly you have dismissed it out of hand already... I am really just going out on a limb here with someone that is obviously not as open-minded as they claim to be. Care to correct me?

Originally posted by twhitehead
What else, other than what? A UFO is an Unidentified Flying Object. Now either you identified it, it wasn't flying, or it didn't exist, or your identification is correct.
What you probably meant was that you believe it to be an alien space craft - which seems rather odd considering that you simulaneously claim that aliens are 5th dimensional (and presuma ...[text shortened]... made up your mind - based on zero evidence. Or did the ufo you saw have a logo on the side?

It was broad daylight. It came from a speck in the distance an 'stopped on a dime' about 150ft in front of me ( I was sitting on a 350ft (odd) hill). It stayed there for a half to one second and then shot str8 up at an incredible speed without seeming to 'gradually accelarate' . (It accerated instantaneously) It was a blurry object that I could not make out.

The clincher for me was that when it 'shot' up I felt a simoultaneous energy rush through my chakras. This 'rush' seemed to match exactly the position of th 'ufo' .

Any help? What would you make of such an experience?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
My comment may have seemed ridiculous. (What comment was that again?) Its obviously not resonating with the reader . ..

The one where you implied that man was incapable of doing things on more than one continent therefore it must be aliens. Do you agree that it was ridiculous?

2. When I come across more info about these 'mutated' bent over crops, I'll let you know.Some scientists are con men. Yes, obviously the ones I read😛
I'll be waiting. Until then, do you admit that you do not know enough about mutation to make any judgment in the matter? Do you therefore admit that as far as you are concerned that evidence should be discarded as unconfirmable?

3.I am genuinely questioning my beliefs!!!! No one has yet offerred me any alternative explanations.
I have done so numerous times. Each time you dismiss the alternatives summarily and fall back on 'personal experience' even when it is totally inapplicable (as in the case of crop circles where you have no personal experience).

I have suggested that I may have mental problems...Geez man ,its just the framework that I'm working with... If you had seen what I had seen how do you know how you would've reacted? You dont. So just lay off man.
I agree, I might have different views if I had seen what you had seen, however I don't think that gives you an excuse to hold irrational views. It is especially not an excuse when your personal experience has no real bearing on the matter - as is the case with crop circles.

There are a whole bunch of people on this forum crapping on about some guy from 2000 years ago. At least I'm trying to be to be contemporary.
There is nothing more contemporary about aliens unless you fully admit that it is a recent fiction - but even then, the age of the origin of a religion does not render it outdated.
I don't agree with theists either and don't think they should hold irrational views. I certainly don't think you should use the 'am not as bad as the other guy' excuse. It certainly doesn't add to the validity of your claims, if anything it is an admission that your claims are faulty.

4.I've read numerous reports about debunkers and disinformers/misinformers. You want me to dig them out?
Why do I believe them? Because it MAY be true...
And there MAY be flying toasters on mars. But just because you saw a screen saver once with flying toasters is no reason to accept it as fact. I hope that you do at least know that a 'debunker' is someone who shows the falsity of a claim - so I guess that in this instance I am one.

5.I've had no personal experience with crop-circles. Yes (again) they could all be fakes.
Would you admit that that seems to be the best explanation based on the information available in this thread?

6.I think we have some of our linguistical wires crossed. I do put in a sincere effort to communicate on the same level, but dont always succeed.
Communication in short posts is never easy and we do tend to misunderstand each other sometimes.

I seem to give credence the TO YOU is obviously false. Clearly you have dismissed it out of hand already... I am really just going out on a limb here with someone that is obviously not as open-minded as they claim to be. Care to correct me?
Being open minded is not equivalent to believing everything nor even equivalent to being agnostic to everything. Being open minded means that if evidence that contradicts your views comes to light then you consider it. I have already said that I tend to take a skeptical stance to all such evidence, but skepticism isn't being closed minded either.
So far, most of the evidence you have presented has been either unconfirmable or blatantly false. I and other posters have demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that some of it is false or ridiculous and in some instances I think you have agreed. What I haven't yet fully established is whether or not you knew it was ridiculous or false at the time you first posted it. For example, when you suggested that man could not create crop circles on more than one continent, did you realize it didn't make any sense but hope nobody would notice, or did you simply type it without thinking, or did you mean to say something else?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
It was broad daylight. It came from a speck in the distance an 'stopped on a dime' about 150ft in front of me ( I was sitting on a 350ft (odd) hill). It stayed there for a half to one second and then shot str8 up at an incredible speed without seeming to 'gradually accelarate' . (It accerated instantaneously) It was a blurry object that I could not mak ...[text shortened]... tly the position of th 'ufo' .

Any help? What would you make of such an experience?

First of all, it is nearly impossible to judge distance and actual size for objects in the sky, especially if they are blurry and moving at high speed. You certainly would not be able to judge something coming towards you stopping on a dime.
But lets look at various alternatives:
1. You imagined it.
2. It was an insect.
3. It was a US Airforce experimental craft.
4. It was not 1-3, it did exist but we have no idea what it was ie it was a UFO.
5. It was an alien space ship.

Those are roughly in the order of likelihood from my perspective. Yet you seem to start with 5. I am not sure why you think some feeling of adrenaline increases the likelihood of 5.

I also wonder why you give so much credit to an experience of a very blurry object that you only saw for a few seconds. There is plenty of evidence that peoples recollection of such things is severely flawed.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
How?

If you haven't seen these footages, you are probably not interested to search for them. Search the YouTube, they are there.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The one where you implied that man was incapable of doing things on more than one continent therefore it must be aliens. Do you agree that it was ridiculous?

[b]2. When I come across more info about these 'mutated' bent over crops, I'll let you know.Some scientists are con men. Yes, obviously the ones I read😛
I'll be waiting. Until then, do you ...[text shortened]... u simply type it without thinking, or did you mean to say something else?[/b]

The best explanation seems that all this is false. Yes.
I really am not sure what is going on exactly, and my belief systems have been streched. Now I am left at a place where I either reject out of hand my life experiences,(and substitute someone elses version of reality), or try to work with my life expeiences and see where they lead me.
I will persist with the latter course, because as I see it the alternative is even worse.
I really just wanted to share stuff here and readily admit that I have trouble presenting credible evidence.
There is no 'glory' ,book sales, or any other kind of positives I see in this for me, (other than maybe some perverse ego-boost), so I really just stick to my views because they are the best explanantion I have with the info I have.

Originally posted by twhitehead
First of all, it is nearly impossible to judge distance and actual size for objects in the sky, especially if they are blurry and moving at high speed. You certainly would not be able to judge something coming towards you stopping on a dime.
But lets look at various alternatives:
1. You imagined it.
2. It was an insect.
3. It was a US Airforce experim ...[text shortened]... econds. There is plenty of evidence that peoples recollection of such things is severely flawed.

The actual size, from my perception of loooking directly at it, would have been about 25-40ft in diameter. Hard to judge at high speed , yes, however it did stop right in front of me for 1/2 to 1 second.
I felt a surge of energy correlate with the exact upward 'shot' of the 'craft' . Have you ever meditated and felt energy through your chakras? I dont think that is adrenaline.

I was living with a friend at the time and we had discussed the topic of ufos, briefly before, and seen some 'night lights' but in no way were ready to claim that we had seen ufos based on that.
After I had my encounter I did not want to mention it to my friend for fear of ridicule, however, several days later I did report it to them. Amazingly coincidentally they said that they too had witnessed what they thought was a ufo , on the same day, at roughly the same time. Unfortanatlely (or fortunately?) it was not the same one. The encounter they had was of a craft with a 'golden orb' -type description that was rising at quite a high speed,(but not nearly as fast as the one that I had seen. ) It was in a different part of the sky. My friend did not want to report it to me for fear of ridicule, as well.


This was some 12-13 years ago and neither of us has seen anything remotely similar to what we had witnessed that day.
Do you think our acounts would have more credibility if we had both winessed the same 'object'?
The whole lesson for me there was to believe what I had seen and clearly felt. Though sometimes I do wish an independent party would've seen it as well.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
If you haven't seen these footages, you are probably not interested to search for them. Search the YouTube, they are there.

I've seen the two old guys in England with their little wooden contraption. Clearly they couldn't hav made all the ones they claim to have made. Are there more hoaxers like them? I'm sure there are,I just wanted to know if it was those two you were refferring to or others?